Have you considered "rewarding" questions, Linda? With sweets, books, whatever?

That has been tried but it's not so powerful with college age children... :-(

Well if this is the issue, then why not build it into the grading system somehow for older students. Consider "inquisitiveness" as a parameter, when considering their performance. As long as you give each an equal opportunity to contribute in this way.

The other option of course is "threats", which might work too. If you haven't asked questions and you clearly have misunderstood, then your grade will be dropped further. If they have asked questions to clarify, but have still failed to understand, then it is the teacher's problem frankly, or they are in the wrong class. To be honest, you don't even need to change the grading, the "risk" that you might be telling the truth could do the trick!

You could always run sessions on "how to ask a good question" or get the students in rotation to run the class and then demonstrate "clarification questions", whilst sitting in the student's chair. Clearly they need a lead on how to ask pertinent questions.

Frankly if this is the issue, with all the expertise here, I can't believe it's insoluble. We should be developing bucketloads of methods and good practice - is nothing working? Or am I being too simplistic, as usual!

Never underestimate the power of small rewards. A friend learned yoga with her grandfather rewarding her with candy. Sure it might not work with college aged students, but some signal, pennies in a jar, may have more impact than you suspect. It goes to prove one economic assumption: people respond to incentives.

I thought today about Beth Kanter's experience at a Cambodian bloging summit last summer. Here is a report on role playing or simulation. Used occasionally such participatory experiences can help to reshape the learning climate in classrooms.

We are working on some of these ideas. We have changed the program for next year so that they spend the first year working on English, problem solving (which requires questioning), organization and time management skills, how to study (children in Thai schools are spoon-fed from the time they start right thru University in order to support this hierarchical system). They have never had to do anything independently. They haven't a clue as to how to proceed let alone the practice to make good work.

All of this is kind of why I started this thread. I need to look at what are the basic requirements in an individuals make-up and training that need to be nurtured and cultivated to get them to a point of solving real problems but I need to do it with "adults" and I need to do it quickly!

Thank all of your for your ideas and points and encouragement. It all helps me a lot.

Linda, you said that there students have never had to do anything independently,you continued by saying that they haven`t a clue as to how to proceed let alone the practice to make a good work. so i would like to know, -is this a comon thing between the pepole in tai-land? -do they all do things depending on some persons? if so then,do you belive in the saying that says ,cherity begins at home?,if you do then to me i think this is a problem that needs to fight starting from homes.we believe that you can force a horse to the well but you can not force it to drink,so forcing those students to do things you may just woersen thing but what i think here in aclass of such student,just sart with a small group of 6,8,10 or even 20 then the rest will see it from those you have brought up that can do things enjoyingly and independently,most people just want to see then they can latter believe and do.what do you think guys?,come on say something,we really need to make education exciting and fun.

A friend of mine ran an entrepreneurial course, which I attended for a while, with some other social enterprise leaders. He covered a lot of different ground, but one which I think was particulalrly effective, was a session, half of which was showing the "Touching the Void" video (http://imdb.com/title/tt0379557/ ).

I think he recognised the magnitude of the task of social entrepreneurs and was trying to get us to tackle things in easy chunks. We then spent the second half trying to break our objectives into manageable chunks.

Sometimes I feel we can feel that we don't know where to start and thus we don't start and I can imagine your students feel this, if there are too few "capable" role models to copy.

Using video will also take the focus away from the teacher and so the students may also find it easier to question the actions of the adults involved. This particular video is very interesting in that one can see the perspectives of both of the men, one of which made a very "questionable" decision.

Ben Parkinson said:

As people know, I know nothing about teaching, but I did run a Scout group for many many years quite successfully, so I will relate some of the things we did, which I felt were very useful at developing imagination.

Ben, by sharing your ideas of what you did, you've given anyone else who is working to inspire kids, some ideas that might be used by them.

That's one of the goals of the Tutor/Mentor Connection. We don't claim to know most of what is known. Thus, we've created a web space at http://www.tutormentorconnection .org where we share what we learn, and what others are learning, and where we encourage others to add their own ideas. We host a conference in May and November to encourage some of the people on our web site, and who we meet in forums like this to come together to share what they know. We're each constantly learning to do someting that has no simple forumula because every child is different, and kids in distressed situations have more obstacles to learning than kids in other environments might have.

However, the second thing we focus on is creating access to these learning opportunities. A tutor/mentor program is a place in a neighborhood where kids and volunteers can connect, just like your summer camp was a place to connect. If you did not offer the summer camp who would? If a tutor/mentor program were not in the neighborhood, the kids would not have access.

The reality is that there are too few summer camp opportunities for most kids, and kids in poverty have far fewer than most other kids. Same is true for tutor/mentor programs. Not enough in the places where they are most needed, and for the various age groups in each geographic area.

Thus, by brining people together to learn about how to tutor, mentor, or inspire learning, we're also aiming to educate people about the availability of existing programs so that people help those already operating get the resources to keep operating and constantly improve, while also helping people in areas without needed programs, get the ideas, resources and encouragment to start new programs.

For this to happen we need to dramatically increase the involvement of people who are not involved in conversations like this, or who have the ability to provide time, talent and/or dollars to help one, or many, of these types of learning programs exist.

As usual slightly off topic. I follow a few education blogs. One I love is think:lab. Christian Long was a teacher and then for a few years was out of the game and wrote prolifically on his blog about social media and education. This fall he went back to work as a teacher. So his blogging is not so prolific this year, but it's so interesting having followed his musings before to see how things work in practice.

He's got his students blogging behind the walls on the school's intranet. Long couldn't resist quoting a little from a couple of those blog posts. I'll just link to the blog scroll down to see the posts "My Students Rock" if you're interested.

I thought you might be for a couple of reasons. First the students are responding to a TED talk by Patrick Awuah, the founder of Ashesi University in Ghana. Second because the students are talking about leadership and themselves as leaders.

That second part raised a lot of questions in mind. Why is it that we Americans imagine that the purpose of school is to create leaders--at least the purpose of elite schools like the one Long is teaching at? It's a peculiarly American way of thinking. But it's interesting that Long is using Awuah's talk, and his adoption of that frame for Ghana. I'm not sure that there's any automatic way that concepts of leadership can be translated across cultures. But the fitting of concepts into culturally meaningful ones is quite a fascinating process to see.

Anyway here's a bit of what one of Long's students wrote--I thought it was something the Linda would love to hear her students articulate:

In other words, it should not just be the job of the teacher to embed information about leadership into the minds of students, but students should have a genuine desire to learn also. With the correct intention of teachers and natural ambition of students,the ability to develop leaders is possible. With time, education and desire, future leaders will understand the real purpose of leadership: 'to serve humanity'.

Mark Grimes said:

I would go so far as to say the quality of questions we ask in our lives determines the overall quality of life we live overall.

How do I get food today?

What is a better solution to that problem?

What is the best solution to that problem, and what might be a better solution in 12 months?

What is a solution no one has thought of yet?

How can my business get more customers?

How can my business get more revenue from the customers it already serves?

Now I'm rambling.

To get answers to problems never solved before we must ask questions that have never been asked before.

Mark, your answer is brilliant. Throughout my life I have often overheard statements such as "I never thought about it like that", etc... I have always been outside the box in my ways and my thoughts and often beliefs. On the education concept. I live in the small town of Dalhousie, NB in eastern Canada. The English elementary school here has had past problems with a number of children failing poorly. My youngest child was one of these children. The NB dept. of education started a project with my daughter's school to have all the failing grade 4 students placed together in one classroom with one teacher. All these children were given one laptop each and the class was given a Smart Board. This smart board is the key to the whole solution. It allows the teacher to show his work. The students can write on the board, etc. They can link to other schools throughout the globe and show presentations on each other's smart boards. The original plan was just to introduce the laptops to the kids for an hour or so per day. Within the first couple of months, the students were on all subjects on the laptops and math and literacy skills have excelled. The students were given the opportunity to help train the younger students that would move up to grade 4 the following years. These students were now mentors. Imagine the feeling of personal growth all these students experienced. They are now halfway through their second year and the NB dept. of education has already shipped a couple of thousand laptops to other schools in the province. The rate of learning is increased. There are no books to carry or destroy, the work and results are in real time and the level of personal growth is advanced by several degrees.

Linda, perhaps you could hold a day long rap session with the students. See if there is anything they would like to achieve for themselves beyond the realm of simplicity. Some may want to make videos, or colorful cards for their family. I always found the easiest way to please someone is to know what pleases them. If you need to know how to advance these students, then perhaps its time to ask them how they would like to be rewarded for progress. Their ideas could be as simple as the ones used in the movie "Good Morning Vietnam".

John Powers said:

Why is it that we Americans imagine that the purpose of school is to create leaders--

Hello John,

please allow me this moment to answer your posted question. All children should be taught to be leaders. Being a leader teaches the children to act on their own without waiting for the start pistol to their day. They grow up with the knowledge that they do not need to be rich to start a company nor do they have to rely on others to do something that they can do for themselves. This is the reason to teach ALL children to become leaders.

Daniel, you might want to comment on the XO Laptop thread, based on your views - I think we're all interested in how this project is going to turn out. You can find it at: http://www.ned.com/group/communi ty-general/news/64/

Second thing is I think your comment of "teaching all children to be leaders" needs disassembling. What aspects of leadership do you mean? How do you think leadership should be taught? Are you talking more about self confidence? What if a child isn't ready for the limelight?

As a guesstimate, I would say half of children are very reluctant leaders and a significantly higher percentage of adults (reluctance worsens with age). I haven't convinced myself that you can teach leadership to everyone yet and clearly some will make better leaders than others, but how do you discover future leaders? How do you measure potential at an early age?

It's an interesting subject you raise.

Oh and welcome to NED!

Mark Grimes said:

To get answers to problems never solved before we must ask questions that have never been asked before.

In another posting someone asked why it's important that we train youth to be leaders. In my own mind I'm not sure the word "leaders" is the right word. To me, I'm thinking of problem solvers, similar to the questions Mark Grimes posted. I use the term "CEO of your own future" to imply the range of responsibility that I feel would be ideal for a youth to have. I don't know who's teaching this effectively, or what percent of any of us get up each morning taking on this attitude.

I think many of us take this habit of problem solving for granted. Yet, I work in inner city neighborhoods where there is a "victim" mentality which reduces the initiative, and daily responsibility, to overcome the problems and obstacles life puts in front of you. I see the same in schools, where teachers struggle with the limited resources they have, instead of innovating ways to expand the resoruces and learning opportunities available to them.

I don't feel this is just an issue of poverty. I live in a modestly affluent community and have two children, age 10 and 17. The number of times they deflect responsibility for their own learning, and problem solving, is distressing.

It's a tough world that kids are growing up in...and that we adults are all living in. If kids do not learn to "learn" and apply learning to solving their own day-to-day challenges, they will experience many difficulties in life that others might have learned to overcome through their own problem solving abilities.

Where leadership comes in is when a problem that needs to be solved requires more than one person to solve it. When someone begins to invite others to take a role in solving the problem they become a "leader". If we teach youth how to form and lead groups of people in problem solving, then we help them become more effective at this.

Dan Bassill said:

Where leadership comes in is when a problem that needs to be solved requires more than one person to solve it. When someone begins to invite others to take a role in solving the problem they become a "leader". If we teach youth how to form and lead groups of people in problem solving, then we help them become more effective at this.

Hello Dan B, Your statement is somewhat true when you think of a leader as a problem solver, however, leaders do have problem solvers working for them. A leader is not simply a world leader or politician. A leader can be captain of the hockey team, etc. In children, leaders are the one that say "let's go swimming today" and the groups responds with a yes or no. Leaders are the lead in the action. Not the solution of a problem. Most of society follows a belief that there is always a leader present and they follow the leader. However, reality shows that as the world grew up so fast, few leaders are around. They have become a shortfall when there is a greater need for leaders. Next, determine a good leader from a bad leader. Many children or youth that grow up into leadership positions find themselves faced with situations they do not know how to deal with and will act upon their first instinct. This is a natural action from a leader. However, if the leader doesn't know the best choice and simply chooses from their likes and dislikes, the followers are now being led by what may be a bad or poor leader.

Leaders are selected by the group and not by an outside person or adult. When someone is "Made" to be leader over a group, he/she may not necessarily be accepted by the group that is to be led. This makes for poor leadership. The fact that we have President's and Prime Ministers that are only accepted by a small margin over 50% of the population shows that most people do not know how to select their own leader but hope the one they want gets into office. Again, this is an error as that one leader still requires an educated and capable staff to support and assist them to lead their people. All society is responsible for proper leadership. This is through sport, volunteer work, etc. They grow to become leaders and accepted by their peers because they showed initiative to lead. A true leader is one that makes themselves leader and is accepted by those around them to be the right person for that role.

Linda - I am a kind of serial entrepreneur, recently thinking a lot about creating good organizations, instead of the usual "rape the land / exploit the worker" ones. Here my latest idea: (Hope this is in the right forum...)

Mini grants for teachers. An organization that allows teachers to post micro grant requests - think $1,100 for a new curriculum, or $350 for a bus and driver. These are things that the districts just cannot afford, but the kids really need. The organization - Kiva.org style - post these requests, and allows individuals fund the ones they want. (Matching gifts, challenge, etc.)

The organization creates school/district/state subpages so that local schools can advertise just their sites. PTOs can provide matching funds or make up funds. Corporate sponsors can get in on the act. We provide all the programming, bandwidth and management for free, and support our organization through grants, fundraising, sponsorships and donations.

The community would provide governance of the requests, to make sure they meet guidelines and that the money is distributed in accordance to each districts rules.

I served on the board of a local foundation called Educare for District 77 here in Mankato. We've supplied hundreds of these mini grants, and the teaching community has been thrilled at the support. Can we do it for the whole world?

Let's start an open source business plan here, and see if where it takes us

http://www.isd77.k12.mn.us/distr ict/educare.php

Interesting idea, Michael. In some cases - $5 new blackboard.

I had an idea today on the "questioning" front. I remember from my younger days a programme called "Stump the Scientist", where kids were encouraged to write in with questions that would be put to scientists and they would win a prize, if the "expert" could not answer it. This gave a bit of status to the experts, but also allowed the kids to think that they might be able to "outwit" the expert. I can remember planning my questions very carefully:) but in the end my "How do birds know which direction to fly for migration?" question came up...

Will keep thinking...

What a pleasure to log into Ned today and find there are new voices (new to me anyway) in these discussions.

A while back I was having supper with a friend. He's a hot -stick lineman for a local electric utility. He's also a brilliant musician, luthier, mechanic, and polymath. He was ranting-- not really fair to let a rant represent his views, keep in mind he's someone who does think about nuances. He was ranting about how executive decisions are so often made by people who've never produced anything with their hands. How people send their kids to college, precisely so they won't have to produce, but earn good money on the backs of others.

In conversations on African blogs, something I hear not too infrequently is a complaint that Americans tend to begin discussion with: "What you Africans need to do..." Have mercy when they're talking about me.

There is something about a notion of creating leaders that's so very Western in its orientation. Linda has talked about the hierarchical view her students learn. In some ways the Western idea of leadership is not unlike the American myth: "One day you could grow up to be president." While the economic class Americans are born into is extraordinarily predictive of future success--the USA is one of the most immobile of any industrial economy--our vision is anyone can rise to the top.

Leaders of course suggest followers, and there followership training is notably absent in the curriculum. Dan, suggested that leadership may not be the right word. And I was very heartened by the observations of Chris Long's tenth grade student:

the real purpose of leadership: 'to serve humanity'.

Service is a construct that Linda's students in Thailand can relate to. Service doesn't imply the rigid hierarchy implicit in leaders/followers. Empowerment, power from within, rather than power over others, is a value we all would do well to learn.

A story I recently heard... A large University builds a new campus, but can not agree on a design for their sidewalks. They don't get it built before winter. A year later, there are perfect paths worn on the lawn indicating where the sidewalks should be.

I told this story to an African friend of mine - and he referred to this as "following the goats." In his village growing up, they always followed the paths made by the goats, rather than blazing their own trail.

http://www.stolaf.edu/people/mbe le/

Educare is a great organizaton, but follows the "Give us the money and we'll decide who gets it" rather than letting everyone share in the process.

Mike Nolan

Daniel Comeau said >>Mark, your answer is brilliant. Throughout my life I have often overheard statements such as "I never thought about it like that", etc... I have always been outside the box in my ways and my thoughts and often beliefs.<<

Dan Bassill said >>To get answers to problems never solved before we must ask questions that have never been asked before. In another posting someone asked why it's important that we train youth to be leaders. In my own mind I'm not sure the word "leaders" is the right word. To me, I'm thinking of problem solvers, similar to the questions Mark Grimes posted. I use the term "CEO of your own future" to imply the range of responsibility that I feel would be ideal for a youth to have. I don't know who's teaching this effectively, or what percent of any of us get up each morning taking on this attitude.<<

Daniel, thank you for the kind words, and out of the box is exactly what it's going to take. Dan, how about some of us (whoever wants to) ventures over into this thread and explore...

What are the qualities inherent in asking great questions?

Michael Nolan said >>We've supplied hundreds of these mini grants, and the teaching community has been thrilled at the support. Can we do it for the whole world? Let's start an open source business plan here, and see if where it takes us<<

Michael, as in develop something online at Ned in which we provide mini grants to teachers around the world for student lead business plans. If that's what you mean, I'm game. I'd suggest you go ahead and start a new thread in the same group: Social Entrepreneurs, Social Enterprise, & Social Business and we could explore this idea further. Very nice.

What at treat it's been to read this thread!

I've just returned from my first visit to my local village primary school (with about 290 pupils, aged 5-11) where I was looking for support for a football boots for Africa initiative I'm in the process of developing (see Facebook, Facebook pictures and Razoo)

I was hoping to enlist the school's support in helping me locate donations of children's soccer boots that have been discarded (usually after very little wear) as the size of the child's foot has grown. I wasn't expecting to see anyone on this visit, just to make an appointment.

With a copy of a local newspaper article about what I was trying to do as my introduction, I was told the deputy head would see me in a couple of minutes.

While I waited I conducted a 2-minute in-depth assessment and analysis of the school's capacity for developing learning. I based my two minutes research on the observation of pupils' deportment as they walked down the corridors. A characteristic gait was detected that I now regard as definitive in diagnosing a good primary school in the UK (elsewhere different criteria might apply).

That gait isn't quite walking (since the child is too animated and excited not to betray their true feelings) and is not quite skipping with delight (since the child knows that it is the rule to walk calmly in the corridors) but is an oddly amusing hybrid, occasionally to be observed too when accompanying relatives (usually older ones) in the street.

It combines the excitement of self-learning with the discipline of respect for others in a healthy learning environment.

So I wasn't altogether surprised by the enthusiastic reception given by the deputy head to my proposal and I was impressed by his proposal to come back to me when he had got a group of older pupils together to discuss with them how they would like to organise the school's response.

Needless to say, I offered my services to this young organising committee in whatever capacity they wished!

David Bale said:

A characteristic gait was detected that I now regard as definitive in diagnosing a good primary school in the UK (elsewhere different criteria might apply).

That gait isn't quite walking (since the child is too animated and excited not to betray their true feelings) and is not quite skipping with delight (since the child knows that it is the rule to walk calmly in the corridors) but is an oddly amusing hybrid,...

Some thoughts come to mind after reading the invigorating posts. I know exactly the walk that David refers to and am horrified to see primary school teachers in the U.S. choke this walk out of our children. Each child is expected to conform to a mold and march along silently like a little soldier in the halls. All class room assignments and homework assignements must be completed following a standardized format with little room for individuality. I call it "playing the Game". I have explained to my daughters that to be rewarded in school, they simply need to learn how do deliver their responses in the prescribed format. If they do so, they will be rewarded with high grades and extra privileges and then they will be able to do the things they want to do. Play the Game.

I have gone one step further and confided in them that while the adults in their lives may control their actions, only they control their thoughts. This allows them to Play the Game when required but still be their own person. They are starting to understand that if they want to experience things most of their peers won't, they must be willing to do what others will not.

Unfortunatly, not every child is told this. Those children grow into adults that do not know how to control their own thoughts and their own destiny and so they become slaves of tradition. Rather then honoring traditions that serve a society, the society begins to serve Tradition.

Tradition then becomes the master. Those living on the plantation are unaware they can leave anytime they wish. They are frightened to think their own thoughts and form their own opinions. What if their peers laugh at them? What if they offend their peers and are excluded from further interaction? Worse, what if they offend Master and risk the loss of security? If they think their own thoughts, they are responsible for their own success---and failure. Why are they worthy of any success that their peers have not experienced? Even more tragic is when they forget how to think their own thoughts. It is safe to stay on the plantation and have all decisions made for them.

I hate to reduce such a tragic situation to an insect, but the analogy of the flea fits. If you put a flea in a jar with a lid, it will hop and hop until it hits the lid. After repeatedly hitting the lid, it will stop hopping as high to avoid hitting the lid. Remove the lid, and the flea still won't hop any higher.

Our perceived prison contains us as well as any iron bars could. Our brains are like fleas in that respect. We cannot rewrite our own programing without outside stimulus. Perhaps if you move your students to a container that is lower then they currently hop they can experience the revelation of 'freedom' and hop higher.

Linda asked:

How does one "inspire" students to look at education as a game? How do people come to see learning as exciting and fun?

Unless these are students of education, I would reframe the question slightly, to:

How does one "inspire" students to look at learning as a game? How do people come to see learning as exciting and fun?

For me it boils down to problem-solving. In a learning context, the problem must be:

• Achievable and challenging
• Relevant and new
• Skills-based and principle-based

There are likely other tensions, but for me the idea gets to the fundamentals of inquiry-based and project-based learning. Fundamentally, you cannot tell this to students; they must experience it.

Which means you must develop learning experiences that "lift the veil" - which is to say by the end of the unit, students can see that they have learned something - there is:

• Pride is what was accomplished
• Evidence of their accomplishment
• Measures of success
• Motivation to learn more

My .0002 bhat as a past educator....

Dawn Sfanos said:

I have gone one step further and confided in them that while the adults in their lives may control their actions, only they control their thoughts. Unfortunatly, not every child is told this. Those children grow into adults that do not know how to control their own thoughts and their own destiny and so they become slaves of tradition. Rather then honoring traditions that serve a society, the society begins to serve Tradition.

I'm pointing to a blog article that has some links that are relevant to this topic: http://nicolecabrini.blogspot.co m/2007/09/charter-schools-how-do -they-relate-to.html

The research shows that kids in high poverty areas get different reinforcements than do kids in more affluent areas, with better educated parents and neighborhoods. If this research is true, how do we surround these kids with extra adults who are better educated so we can inspire the poor kids to learn in many of the same ways the affluent kids are supported?

Dan wrote:

how do we surround these kids with extra adults who are better educated so we can inspire the poor kids to learn in many of the same ways the affluent kids are supported

This is such a critical issue you have put your finger on Dan. I recall research a while back that demonstrated much of what high-scoring SAT takers learn is learned at home.

If you think about it, it makes sense. For example, you can teach all the vocabulary you want at school. But if its not reinforced in the home, students are likely to do very well on the sections of written exams that test for reading comprehension, etc.

Of course, there will always be the inspiring exceptions to the general rule...

So "surrounding" young people who do not live their lives in a positive learning environment at home with adults who can encourage them is IMO essential... and still may not be sufficient.