Site Improvements

How can we improve ned?

Want to abolish all negative feedback? Make things more like Razoo?

Start your ideas here! Ideas that catch probably deserve their own discussions eventually.

This site does not have full time support personnel, but changes will be made as people agree on good ideas, and time permits. Larger features may require raising money and hiring programmers, but that's not out of the question!

Last comment added: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:39:10 PDT

Comment 1 on Site Improvements

I like the idea of the feedback being identified with what it is for. With the Razoo system, you identify if it was something you did, something you said, an inspiration, a thank you. When we were working with Arthur Brock, he proposed, and I really liked

Stones – Originality / Ideas / Eloquence
Tumbles – Participation / Processing / Community Building
Gems – Implementation / Practice / Action / Leadership

Comment 2 on Site Improvements

Yeah, Linda. I like the idea. So would we just have three kinds of feedback: one for each stage of gem? Could a single comment receive 2 tumbles and 1 gem? Where else would we see these? How could someone use the feedback to find the gems on the site?

Comment 3 on Site Improvements

So Linda if I understand your comment in the welcome thread, we should just tell people that their content is under a CC license?

I could see giving people an option of license. They could choose various CC licenses or none, or something more restrictive.

I do think that people have valid reasons that they haven't chosen the CCAL30 on omidyar.net. I think it comes down to the concern that under the CCAL30 the content can find its way to places that it is no longer in a good context, even if it is attributed to the right people.

Still, it would be nice if we could find some blanket agreement that would cover everyone equally.

Comment 4 on Site Improvements

Jim,

Currently we can set a filter limit to look at threads based on the feedback. Why couldn't we set filters on each aspect of the gems in the making?

Discussion of how to handle words spoken in the public domain probably deserve their own space. :-)

Comment 5 on Site Improvements

I like the idea of points with purpose...very much so when related to action and such as well.

>>Still, it would be nice if we could find some blanket agreement that would cover everyone equally.<<

Agreed.

Also, should each group be created under some form of index system (like Wiser Earth's 44 main areas of focus) or something to help give groups context?

We also can do some pretty interesting things with the main ned.com page as well.

Comment 6 on Site Improvements

It would be interesting if each group would auto-generate a thread each month (ala Crisis in Sudan and Food Chain), so each would have a monthly main discussion area.

It would also be very, very cool if that code (one chunk of code, just one time) could be syndicated to multiple web sites.

A group like The Emancipation Network running their group at ned.com could then syndicate an ongoing monthly discussion based on slavery to multiple web sites dedicated to the same subject.

Comment 7 on Site Improvements

These are great ideas Mark...

Mark Grimes said:

It would be interesting if each group would auto-generate a thread each month (ala Crisis in Sudan and Food Chain), so each would have a monthly main discussion area.

It would also be very, very cool if that code (one chunk of code, just one time) could be syndicated to multiple web sites.

A group like The Emancipation Network running their group at ned.com could then syndicate an ongoing monthly discussion based on slavery to multiple web sites dedicated to the same subject.

Comment 8 on Site Improvements

my opinion is that negative feedback is necessary..

I dont' see another alternative at this point.

there has to be some kind of reward/consequence for actions

Comment 9 on Site Improvements

Thnx.

>>my opinion is that negative feedback is necessary.<<

I agree, and think it can be used without being cruel.

In some ways I would prefer if with +2 (or more) or -2 (or more) to a comment or thread members "signed their name to it". Never been a fan of giving -5 to sign my name and having that also close the comment. Would be nice to have the option to do both.

What about form fields under our personal profiles that encourage all members to share their phone numbers and mailing addresses? The more there are real names, real contact information, real stories, real pictures, real videos, real actions...the more interesting things become (I think).

Comment 10 on Site Improvements

What if each group owner is responsible for keeping the area of their group friendly, OT etc. If the behavior in the group is deemed unacceptable by some number of the board, the group is folded (timed out) for some amount of time. If the norms are established early and diligently enforced, that could be good. It could also make each person who owns a group a Host/Hostess. Better than the people on razoo who are memebrs f 700 causes to be razoo ambassadors.

Comment 11 on Site Improvements

Good ones Linda.

I also think (and Jim can confirm), that there are now "semi-private groups" within ned.com... meaning that everyone can read, but only those invited into the group can post.

Comment 12 on Site Improvements

What about a limit to the number of groups members can start?

What can be best done to keep noise to a minimum, and help focus on action, collaboration, getting work done, etc?

Comment 13 on Site Improvements

Mark Grimes said:

Good ones Linda.

I also think (and Jim can confirm), that there are now "semi-private groups" within ned.com... meaning that everyone can read, but only those invited into the group can post.

Um, there are several degrees of privacy for groups. The Help group (where you go when you click "Help Index" in the upper left) is an example of a group that only members can edit or create content.

Comment 14 on Site Improvements

Mark Grimes said:

What about a limit to the number of groups members can start?

What can be best done to keep noise to a minimum, and help focus on action, collaboration, getting work done, etc?

It's going to be interesting having fewer points on this site. Since we don't automatically accumulate points when others read our content, it's not going to be so common to have 10 points to create a new group. I think that might be the limit right there.

Comment 15 on Site Improvements

~ Mark asked: ~

~ What about form fields under our personal profiles that encourage all members to share their phone numbers and mailing addresses? ~

I'm not really a fan of publishing my personal information to that degree. Real name, sure but if someone wants to call me or send something to me/visit they can pm me for the information.

Comment 16 on Site Improvements

>>it's not going to be so common to have 10 points to create a new group. I think that might be the limit right there.<<

Excellent.

>>I'm not really a fan of publishing my personal information to that degree.<<

I totally get that. Publishing my work address and cell number is entirely different that other personal information (home address/phone) etc.

An editorial calendar could look something like this...

September 2007: Partners for Others/international-aid
October 2007: The Emancipation Network/trafficking
November 2007: Peace Tiles/AIDS
December 2007: Life in Africa/orphans
January 2008: Stop Genocide Now/genocide
February 2008: SOLID/poverty
March 2008: Better World Island/technology
April 2008: Making Cool Stuff Happen/volunteering

Seems like each month the Main ned.com Index Page could feature specific grassroots Ned member organizations (NPO, NGO and social purpose). The monthly feature could outline recent accomplishments, current volunteer opportunities (both real world and online only), small scale fundraising item (for something $500-$5,000), current month actions and goals, etc, etc.

If you click the number "5" after the word "Links" in this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g RWSRXHWB7c&eurl=

Sites Linking to This Video:
904 clicks from http://www.ned.com/
386 clicks from http://www.colourlovers.com/d41d 8cd98f00b204e9800998...
226 clicks from http://ned.com/
23 clicks from http://www.stopgenocidenow.org/c ategory/iact/iact3/
21 clicks from http://stopgenocidenow.org/categ ory/iact/iact3/

...you will see that of the 3,215 visits to that video page since 7/23 that 1,130 came directly from ned.com from just the sites "natural" organic traffic. I think a monthly feature of the orgs on the main page could lead to some pretty interesting opportunities and actions.

Comment 17 on Site Improvements

where do the ned branded communities like ned Uganda and ned Thailand feature in the proposed editorial calendar?

I'm really not sure I like the idea of 1 month featuring only 1 initiative on the front page. Then you miss the ongoing story... I was imagining something more along the lines of the social edge blogs - key content from the field that gets updated regularly, offering visitors the ability to follow along over time from the home page.

Also, just had a chat with some of my Ugandan friends who observed that awarding more points to those who have more time to read discriminates against those of us with limited bandwidth. We would like to see point systems that reward the people at the grassroots who go to such great lengths to get online and participate.

Comment 18 on Site Improvements

Today we had a disruption of ned hosting service from 12:20 to 1:30 Eastern time. The problem was a problem with an upstream ISP that affected a sizable region of Vermont. I do think it will be a rare occurance, but it does make me look forward to the day that we have some site sponsors and can migrate to a more stable (and expensive) host.

Comment 19 on Site Improvements

Wondering about the "group creation function" ... association streams of "business", "community", "social sector" seem unnecessary in that there's so much overlap - it's a cumbersome artifice.

Would rather the streams reflect behaviour - "discussion", "action", "planning" or even "R 'n' R"

Comment 20 on Site Improvements

Hey jim: Have just notice that when u click on the new up date on omidyar it take u striate to omidyar net,so am woundering if that is supposed to be?.

Comment 21 on Site Improvements

Hi Peter, those are nice alternatives. Very nice.

I have been deleting the top level groups like public / private / social blah blah that omidyar.net was using to categorize things. I'll delete more soon, (I've left the ones that already had member groups, just in case deleting them broke something.)

The four categories you have there are really attractive, since people are likely to be looking for one and not another when they visit the site.

Comment 22 on Site Improvements

Hi Jim,

Appreciate your tweaking/adjusting the categorization of groups as opportunity permits.

It's these early shifts that'll allow <ned> to differentiate.

Be well.

Jim said:

Hi Peter, those are nice alternatives. Very nice.

I have been deleting the top level groups like public / private / social blah blah that omidyar.net was using to categorize things. I'll delete more soon, (I've left the ones that already had member groups, just in case deleting them broke something.)

The four categories you have there are really attractive, since people are likely to be looking for one and not another when they visit the site.

Comment 23 on Site Improvements

I've removed the rest of the top-level groups, and added a Fun group called R 'n' R. I want to wait to hear from the board about trying to separate discussion from action, etc. That seems like something that would take effort to keep separate.

Comment 24 on Site Improvements

Brad is the first to "neg" a comment here and here ... one of the benefits of a small alpha.

Now ... Brad being Brad, no foul (perhaps).

I'm not sure why a behaviour deplored, by Brad - i.e. anonymous "negging", would be brought to <ned>.

Comment 25 on Site Improvements

I noticed the negs too 'sigh'. I was a little confused as to why they were deemed necessary.

Comment 26 on Site Improvements

Only Brad can say for certain. I'd guess he's making a point. An old stale empty point, but a point nevertheless.

If you look at the tags under Brad's profile, I made a point too.

Evvy said:

I noticed the negs too 'sigh'. I was a little confused as to why they were deemed necessary.

Comment 27 on Site Improvements

Hey you want to support anonymous negative point giving,

well that is just a tip of the iceberg of what we'll get,

now is the perfect time to remove this failing feature!

just trying to make the point!

;)

Comment 28 on Site Improvements

Thanks Brad, for making your (negative) point ... again.

That reminds me, for the list of site improvements, can we have an ignore button?

Comment 29 on Site Improvements

Meron: we can ignore certain users, there's no UI for it, but I'll PM you with the link.

Brad: This is not a good site on which to do annoying things just to point out how annoying you can be with the feature. Please save the negative points for spammers, people who act disruptively, or without respect for the peace and good will on the site.

The site is open now so that the board can set the ground rules, and lay the foundation of a healthy site.

When you say, "well that is just a tip of the iceberg of what we'll get" it sounds hostile to me.

Please don't be hostile.

Comment 30 on Site Improvements

Brad, I realized that you didn't mean to be hostile, but you were warning that others might use negative points inappropriately. Sorry I took it the wrong way.

Don't worry, this site is going to be more hands-on in terms of community moderation. My feeling is that the point system only works if people have a common goal. On Omidyar.net, there were a group of people who had a goal of having fun being disruptive. If that happens here, we won't leave it to the points system to let the community moderate itself, the board has decided that we will disable user's accounts and effectively ban people from the site if they are disruptive, and the board votes together to ban the user.

Comment 31 on Site Improvements

ok, Jim you'll find out I thought the same 3 1/2 yrs ago about ONet, the negative point system will destroy this place just like it destroyed ONet if it is not changed! Good Luck! ;)

--- Jim Carroll wrote:

Dear Brad Byrne,

Jim Carroll has given you -1 negative feedback, and has provided the following comment:

Brad, This site is about getting stuff done, please do not do annoying things just for the sake of the point of the annoyance. This is exactly what drove people away from omidyar.net, and it won't be tolerated by me here.

Comment 32 on Site Improvements

Jim Carroll said:

On Omidyar.net, there were a group of people who had a goal of having fun being disruptive. If that happens here, we won't leave it to the points system to let the community moderate itself, the board has decided that we will disable user's accounts and effectively ban people from the site if they are disruptive, and the board votes together to ban the user.

one last comment, (which is meant to be constructive btw)

Jim, you will not be able to do that peacefully and still scale, what is considered constructive to some is considered disruptive to others and vise-versa, if this site has plans for engaging more than a 100 or so members, then the board will not have time to moderate it w/o causing negative personal opinions of the moderators.

personally, I am a firm believer in the idea that "ALL are Welcome" - the whole is better than the parts! if a group doesn't like someones postings then exclude them from that group, let's say Brad is a disruptive poster, well eventually all the groups who think so will ban Brad from posting in that group, simple! and eventually Brad might find himself only posting in the 'Brad's Corner Group' and that is all transparent! make the negative feedback transparent! and let the members moderate! else Ned will appear to be a 'closed environment, clique' and you will lose membership just as ONet did.

again Best Wishes! :)

Comment 33 on Site Improvements

Brad Byrne said:

ok, Jim you'll find out I thought the same 3 1/2 yrs ago about ONet, the negative point system will destroy this place just like it destroyed ONet if it is not changed! Good Luck! ;)

Brad, I do not agree that negative points/feedback destroyed ONet. I could agree that the misuse of it was a big part of the destruction.

At ONet there was a faction that did seem to enjoy the act of giving negs and did so unmercifully and many times with no just cause. Conversations were constantly disrupted, brutal personal attacks were made using negs as a weapon, the productivity of the community was impeded. I personally became fearful to make comments and was very quiet even though I was there every day. I don't think I was alone in my fear.

Negative feedback is necessary, in my opinion, but we as a community must make a choice to use it wisely. To use it correctly as it is intended. And to act as a community to stop it if we see it being misused. How do we do that? I see it as threefold.

At <ned> we have a governing board that can step in to stop abusive negging whereas at Onet we did not

This gives me some comfort because there were many times on ONet that I screamed at my computer screen for somebody to "Stop the Abuse' but there wasn't anybody listening. I have looked at the list of board members here and I trust that they will not let this happen here.

WE as the new <ned> community must make a choice and a commitment to use the system wisely

The system is designed to safeguard against spamming, disruptive behavior, personal attacks, etc. We need to choose to use it for just that. I do not believe it is or was ever intended to use as a weapon or as a means of entertainment by disrupting and destroying conversations. WE can change that by not doing it ourselves and by speaking out when we see it happening.

On ONet there was a faction that seemed to operate like a pack of thugs who seemed to have a sole purpose of stopping the good that was happening. Most of them did not have projects they were working on and they did not seem to even want to do good. I never understood why they were there or were allowed to stay. They seemed to be in every conversation and in every group. WE cannot allow that to happen again. I ran from them at ONet but I will not do that again and I think most of the members here think the same way. At least I hope so.

WE as the new <ned> community must choose to change OUR OWN reaction to negative feedback

Back on ONet I saw many good conversations deteriorate because someone got a neg on a comment. All of a sudden the conversation became about "who negged me" or "how dare someone neg me" and this would sometimes go on for pages and pages until everyone just left because there was no conversation left.

If a comment draws a neg then I think the writer should step back and take a second look at what they wrote. I think if I were the person getting negged I would ask myself some questions like:

Was I off topic? If that is the case then perhaps I should let that comment go and get back on topic or start a new thread myself.
Was my comment too harsh, sounding hostile or sounding like a personal attack on someone? If that is the case then perhaps I need to apologize or reword my comment in a more appropriate manner to make my point.
Was there no apparent reason for the neg? If this is the case then the best approach would be just to assume that someone just chose to disagree with me and I should just move forward without making a huge thing of it. I would hope that negs would not be used this way but I can accept it since I do realize that not everyone will agree with my point of view.

The past does not have to repeat itself. WE have the choice to allow that to happen or not. I choose not.

Brad, I am sorry you are choosing to not give us a chance. You are assuming that we will fail and that there will be a repeat of the Onet experience here without giving us a chance to even get started. I hope that you will change your mind. I believe that we can learn from past mistakes and build on those mistakes to make a better future.

Comment 34 on Site Improvements

Something I'd love to see in the help pages is a guide for how to use feedback.

Like for instance, is a point supposed to mean "I agree/disagree" or is it supposed to mean "Hey everyone, look at this!", or does it matter if it means something different to each person? (I am hoping we could agree on a meaning and ask everyone to stick to that, so when anyone sees points given they have a common basis for interpreting them. :)

And how about 2 points? Is that supposed to mean "I REALLY agree/disagree" or can it just mean "I'm feeling generous today (or my bank is fuller), so where yesterday I gave something 1 point, today I'm giving something else 2 points, even though I felt stronger about the thing from yesterday."

Another question I have is if comment A has 3 points and comment B has -1, but I feel that comment B is way more important than comment A, should I give it 2 points (which would bring it to +1) because I really agree with it, or should I rather give it 5 points (bringing it to +4) so I can hilite the fact that I think B should have more points than A?

[Sorry if this sounds too technical, but that latter practice can lead to inflation.]

Comment 35 on Site Improvements

David, welcome to ned.com. Soon there is likely to be a suggestion group to look at all these things you mentioned (and others), and weigh them all.

Possibly capping points that someone can give a post, thread or person.

Possibly rebooting all points every 12/24/36 months.

Also, there has been discussion of things that have meaning outside points. Like icons.

Group owners can award different types of icons to members (that then show up under their profiles) who do different things for that group. Volunteer an hour. Host a TEN party. Have a Peace Tiles event. Donate $25. Meeting FTF. Help someone on the phone for 30 minutes. Well, you get the idea.

Comment 36 on Site Improvements

I've been thinking that we could have a warning that appears when someone clicks on a - to give negative feedback:

"Do you find this material inappropriate or offensive?"

If they click yes, then the neggie happens, otherwise we suggest that they reply instead.

Comment 37 on Site Improvements

I think that would be a positive step.

Another idea is simply to have a "Violates User Agreement" button that you check, instead of negative points.

Comment 38 on Site Improvements

I like it David. It takes away any ambiguity for the newcomer.

Comment 39 on Site Improvements

Although VUA - Violates User Agreement - could be a tag applied to content.

As an aside ... I'm not interested in covering old O.net ground.

My interest is building ned.com to support the growth/sustainability of <ned> global franchises, where <ned> = 10,000 villages + Starbucks + community_centre, all linked and supported by a global community gathered at ned.com.

Comment 40 on Site Improvements

Well said Peter, and thank you.

I think it's going to fun to boot, and cause some very interesting waves of change.

Comment 41 on Site Improvements

<ned> = 10,000 villages + Starbucks + community_centre

Do you mean a <ned> branded cafe which also sells products produced by artisans in developing countries, or a joint venture with http://www.tenthousandvillages.com/ and http://www.starbucks.com/?

Comment 42 on Site Improvements

I'm not convinced that we need a lot of rules, regulations and tiers around points; I'm still with the KISS crowd. Personally I can't see myself expending a lot of energy trying to figure out how we high-five each other. I'm not here for the kudos, icons, points or gold stars, I'm here to (net)work and breathe life in to <ned> and .ned

Comment 43 on Site Improvements

I have to agree with Meron, I think the whole points/kudos thing is often just a distraction. While I liked the theory behind negative points, the realitiy is that people did not use them enough and since they were not used enough they became a major distraction when used. They also brought out the rabble who just like to complain about things.

If we have active moderation that deletes posts and users then neg points will become even less needed.

How about neg points that can only be seen by the board - so that they can be used as a flag by users that they have concerns but being invisable to the troublemakers.

Comment 44 on Site Improvements

Well said, Meron!

Though I do think we need, collectively, to promote a culture of unwritten "rules" where we are sensitive and responsive to each other's points of view, where point dumping or campaigning against other ned.com members (provided they are respecting the users agreement) are frowned on because such behaviours are part of an insistent ME (or THEM and US) culture, rather than a inclusive WE culture of non-competitive support, where diversity is valued.

Comment 45 on Site Improvements

I like it John. I think the - link does need to be turned into words, and I also like that there's no immediate visible clue to non-board members. It simply helps the moderation process, which has to be person-to-person in delicate cases.

Comment 46 on Site Improvements

I forget who, but someone suggested changing the colors just a bit so that people can tell when they're on omidyar.net and when they're here. I added a subtle background that gives the pages the green stripe down the left side, which is the only simple change I could think of. Any graphic artists in the house?

Comment 47 on Site Improvements

Jim, what do you think about adding the /issues/ as a tab for all groups too? Useful or just distracting?

Comment 48 on Site Improvements

What would be under the tab?

(My first reaction is that issues should be a rather-large feature on the site, that can be dropped into existing comments and workspaces using .. issues: kind of directives) But maybe there's something more doable we could start sooner.

Comment 49 on Site Improvements

Oops. I didn't mean issues as in index, I meant issues as a tracking tool that already exists (I think):

http://www.omidyar.net/group/foo dchain/issues/0/

Comment 50 on Site Improvements

Oh... I see. To-do list sort of thing. It is true that we can easily have one per group, and I think I could add a tab that showed it. Let me take a look...

I wonder why omidyar.net chose not to reveal that functionality...

Comment 51 on Site Improvements

I suspect because it was used inhouse more for Thomas/Haney/Pierre to handle bugs and software task/assigments ... and not really thought about how a broader group might use it.

Which leads to to ask. Are there any other plug-n-play type features for this type software that we could all be aware of? Calendars, etc?

Comment 52 on Site Improvements

~ Mark said: ~

Which leads [one] to ask. Are there any other plug-n-play type features for this type software that we could all be aware of? Calendars, etc?

Oh, Boy! Sounds like Christmas!!! Maybe there's lots of goodies to open :D

Comment 53 on Site Improvements

~ Jim said: ~

~ I forget who, but someone suggested changing the colors just a bit so that people can tell when they're on omidyar.net and when they're here. I added a subtle background that gives the pages the green stripe down the left side, which is the only simple change I could think of. Any graphic artists in the house? ~

I know! How about the tweak is, after September 7th you can't post a comment to O'net? ; )

Comment 54 on Site Improvements

Jim Carroll said:

I've been thinking that we could have a warning that appears when someone clicks on a - to give negative feedback:

"Do you find this material inappropriate or offensive?"

If they click yes, then the neggie happens, otherwise we suggest that they reply instead.

Jim, I think this solution to the 'negatives problem' would be both simple and effective. It would certainly resolve my criticism that negatives on O/net provided members with an easy cop out because it allowed negs to be used to express disagreement with a comment rather than engaging in debate.

That said, the 'solution' only addresses the use of negatives in discussions and not the direct use of negatives against individuals to either express dislike, spite, disapproval, censure or - in the rarer worst case scenarios - to bury them altogether.

When this use of negatives was also anonymous and, on occasions, also seen (rightly or wrongly) as a 'clique attack' it was understandably taken as a personal attack.

That then led those of us whose first instinct is to try to defend the underdog to correct the situation with positive points and then, of course, we witnessed all of the consequent exhausting, diverting and acrimonious discussions that followed.

The upshot ? We were all losers because some disruptive members gained personality status as the community's resident 'pains in the butt' on the basis of often erroneous freedom of speech arguments.

All of which is a long winded way of trying to illustrate that the most disruptive and embittered aftermath of negatives came when they were directed at an individual's 'reputation' score and most heat on the use of negatives was always generated around the anonymous use of negative points.

I always thought it strange that no on ever complained about anonymous positives but I'm even handed on this one.

If the old O/net points system is going to be retained (even in the short term) I don't see why any points (pluses or minuses)need to be anonymous.

Surely, if everything is out front from the start that will encourage the use of PMs to seek understandings and resolve differences without the 'points issue' clogging up discussions.

And doesn't that process help build the positive layers of interaction that unite communities rather than tear them apart ?

Comment 55 on Site Improvements

John says:

If the old O/net points system is going to be retained (even in the short term) I don't see why any points (pluses or minuses)need to be anonymous.

I'm with John on this. Particularly, if the suggestion that negatives are visible only to the board of advisors is acted on, it would mean that all other awards of points would be entirely transparent.

IMO This would would reinforce trust and build mutual understanding.

Comment 56 on Site Improvements

Thanks David .... and, to illustrate my point further, I would add that in the Other Place I would probably have given you anonymous positive points for agreeing with me, thereby boosting both of us and my opinion..... but, as my bank is low in this place, I'll resist the temptation. :)

But seriously, the use of our real names on Ned is welcomed and should always be encouraged (even though it is difficult to police) because this simple requirement builds trust and also acts as a deterrent to mischief makers.

I am suggesting that anonymity undermines this trust.

Comment 57 on Site Improvements

John said:

[...] But seriously, the use of our real names on Ned is welcomed and should always be encouraged (even though it is difficult to police) because this simple requirement builds trust and also acts as a deterrent to mischief makers.

I am suggesting that anonymity undermines this trust.

Agreed.

Comment 58 on Site Improvements

Idea for new thing under personal profles.

Have:

3-5 items max, each in its own field radio button choice for free, trade, fee.

Want:

3-5 items max, each in its own field radio button choice for free, trade, fee.

Perhaps tjose things could also exist for groups too, and include.

Actions:

5-7 items max, each in its own field radio button choice for do something online, do something in your community, phone call, buy something, funding, introduction, idea needed, feedback wanted, test something, etc.

Maybe each has a character limit that would be a single line of text.

Maybe each item has an expiration date too (7 days, 30 days, 90 days), so things are kept fairly fresh.

And all haves, wants, and actions could be pushed into a group/page and members could browse among the items and see what is available.

Comment 59 on Site Improvements

The other big thing we need to work on is some kind of better navigation. Even with almost no one here I find I am a day or two behind on new threads as there seems to be no easy way to find them. The whats new is ok, but when busy only shows the few most recent things and gives no sense of what the structure of this place is. I would like to see some kind of map, or drilldown menu.

Comment 60 on Site Improvements

We could do an index by hand and list things by: human rights, community, social enterepreneurs/enterprise, development, sustainability, and have all groups listed under a main category header. Would that work?

Also seems to me like we could limit the number of groups somehow. And/or groups should be self-tagged with their main area of focus...and then they more or less "own that space" within Ned. In other words, The Emancipation Network Group would have the human trafficking, slavery space. If a new organization with the same focus wanted to get active in Ned, they would simply do it in a thread under the TEN group.

Does any of this make sense?

edit: spelling

Comment 61 on Site Improvements

Mark, I've transferred the Wanted Ads group over from the other place (http://www.ned.com/group/wanteda ds/) and I think it would be helpful if any paid advertising on personal pages or profile pages was clearly separated from postings on Wanted Ads.

I think content can be separated by intent. Obviously, someone offering goods/services for a fee from their profile page is clearly advertising and, if a fee was charged for those entries, that would resolve past disputes in The Other Place about people using their personal pages for 'commercial gain' - no matter how worthy their objectives.

It might also be helpful to bear in mind that the original idea for Wanted Ads was a permanent centre for barter, networking, skills exchange, voluntary support etc.

The ideal would have been one click access for everyone - e.g. with Wanted Ads always heading up 'What's New' or appearing as an automatic entry on everyone's Watch List. Maybe that could be arranged here ?

There's also no reason why Wanted need exclude (help, skills,stuff) Offered so I'm happy to rewrite the intro or change the group title if that helps clarify the difference with paid ads if they happen.

And, if there is any leakage of advertising for gain into Wanted to escape classified fees I would guess members would quickly police that once the purpose of Wanted/Offered was clearly understood.

My initial thoughts - but I would be interested to hear what others have to say.

Comment 62 on Site Improvements

Call me wacky, but I would love to see the "Who's Online" be at the top rather than the bottom in the left column. It is always the first thing I look at...so I always have to scroll down. Maybe that's just me.

Comment 63 on Site Improvements

I do the exact same thing and always scroll down to see who is online right away. So for me, moving that function to the top would be great.

I also agree with John on the index. At the Other Place my coping mechanism was to follow people instead on topics. This did put me where the people I wanted to hang out with were probably talking about things I was interested in but it was a very limiting system and I know I missed a lot. An index would be much better.

Comment 64 on Site Improvements

Surely Who's Online is at the bottom of the list because it can be as long as a piece of string ? If all goes well, it could be a very long string.

Maybe I'm wacky too but I always look first for items in bold type on my Watch List so that I can pick up on discussions where I'm a follower or contributor.

But then maybe I'm a just one of life's scrollers. ;)

Comment 65 on Site Improvements

I agree John, Who's online is the only one that has a size that changes all the time, and putting it at the bottom keeps things steadier.

I use the watch list too, and also watch for Group names that are bold, so I know there's something I haven't read in a group. Joining a group is a good way to watch everything within.

I've been thinking that there could be a variation of the watch list that's "everything I haven't read on the site" As if you were watching everything. It would be like what's new, but would hide individual comments, and anything that you had read.

Comment 66 on Site Improvements

Jim Carroll said:

I agree John, Who's online is the only one that has a size that changes all the time, and putting it at the bottom keeps things steadier.

I had not thought of the size, and hopefully it will get huge. So I have to agree that the only logical thing is to leave it where it is.

I've been thinking that there could be a variation of the watch list that's "everything I haven't read on the site" As if you were watching everything. It would be like what's new, but would hide individual comments, and anything that you had read.

That would be cool!

Comment 67 on Site Improvements

I think the cool idea is cool too !

Comment 68 on Site Improvements

What if we zeroed out people's personal points each day?

(I find it weird over on the Other Place that the number "3136" follows me around everywhere I post, whether I'm being helpful or idiotic. Wouldn't a more interesting number to follow me around be the number of days I've been a member?)

I like giving points to comments and threads, as a way to say, "Hey look at this!" But people? "Hey look at him!" ???

Comment 69 on Site Improvements

ok, so if we are reorganizing the left column... here's the order I'd love to see:

groups I own (lights up when there is activity anywhere in those groups)

my other other groups (also lights up when there's any activity there)

my watchlist (takes me to the newest posts in specific discussions I choose)

my footprints (where I've recently been)

who's online

help

Comment 70 on Site Improvements

^^^ What she said : )

Comment 71 on Site Improvements

From a BoP point of view ...

Does <ned> have an implicit interest in keeping this site as broadly accessible as possible, i.e. the site loads quickly whether the user is accessing via dial-up or an early iteration of windows?

I'd like orgs like Inveneo to recommend their client use <ned>, etc ...

Comment 72 on Site Improvements

Ned.com intropage (not ned.com/home) could do with an overhaul.

It still links to a yahoo group (witch i think is non- existent)

Comment 73 on Site Improvements

>>Does <ned> have an implicit interest in keeping this site as broadly accessible as possible, i.e. the site loads quickly whether the user is accessing via dial-up or an early iteration of windows?<<

100% yes.

>>Ned.com intropage (not ned.com/home) could do with an overhaul. It still links to a yahoo group (witch i think is non- existent)<<

Agreed. Right now I'd like it to be a simple <Ned> text link into the /home/ page. I think the UI can be built in such a way to highlight a few of the active groups within the community and really draw people into not only the conversations...but the actions and things those groups are looking for from other people. The Yahoo group is mainly Portland people from a few Portland events...once there is a little more structure within this site I'm going to invite them to join here.

Comment 74 on Site Improvements

Maybe a little introduction to these conversations here on the homepage could be helpfull.

Comment 75 on Site Improvements

Agreed.

Comment 76 on Site Improvements

Also a more textbased homepage with clearly stated goals and objectives would be good.

The youtube video could be put at the bottom of the page. (That'll make people see the text while the video is loading in the background--->>> good for people with low connections)

Comment 77 on Site Improvements

Mark, If you create a workspace for the homepage by dumping in the html, then that would be a nice way for you to update the homepage, and then at your request, I'll copy that to the site's main static root page. (You might even have some luck with the .. raw:: html directive if you don't have any blank lines.

Comment 78 on Site Improvements

until we get a "real" design, I was just thinking of this for a zen like placeholder for now.

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">

<title>Ned :: a better world experience, social entrepreneurs, social enterprise, social purpose enterprise, npo, ngo, community based organizations</title> <style type="text/css">

<!-- .style1 {

font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: x-small;

} .style2 {color: #000000} -->

</style>

</head>

<body>

</strong></p> <p class="style1" align="center"> </p> </body> </html>

Comment 79 on Site Improvements

Is it possible to get more points injected into the system to enable members to sponsor groups and seed more activity on <Ned> ?

Comment 80 on Site Improvements

Hi John, One of the things that came up early in conversations between Mark and I is that we wanted to limit the number of groups to one per person. Instead of changing the code so that people could only create one group, we decided to see if the smaller starting karma banks and the cost of creating groups regulated the group proliferation by itself.

I think the idea behind it is that it's better to have fewer well-cared-for groups.

That said, during the seeding timeframe, we did reduce the cost of creating a group from 10 points to 2 points, so people can create groups while is less karma in circulation.

The seeding timeframe might be ending though, now that we're up to 99 visitors a day, and 49 members. Mark, what do you think?

Comment 81 on Site Improvements

>>The seeding timeframe might be ending though, now that we're up to 99 visitors a day, and 49 members. Mark, what do you think?<<

Yes, I agree very much. I think that group propagation at o/net was definitely the cause of many members feeling of overwhelm. If members are limited to one group each, they will focus (and carefully moderate) the one thing that is closest and dearest to their hearts. Plus if every group within <Ned> is collaboration and action based there should be plenty of things for everyone to do.

I'm not sure of all the actions that have been already floating around, but here are three.

Name a web site: Playful City: Atlanta
Meet or introduce Atlas Corps Fellows to your friends in Washington DC`_
Soap Project - Development and help Munnu Morrish work to build a successful liquid soap business in Gulu, Uganda. Something that if done properly could help provide a living wage to perhaps dozens of individuals.

BTW, with 20,000 people even one group per person is not scalable. Members need to probably "own" their categories and collaborate with other members and organizations within them. Now if someone must start/own a second group...I'm sure there will be exceptions to the rule. Action. Collaboration. Measurable results. Small failures. Trying new things in the real world. Transparent reporting (financial and operational). Sharing results and lessons learned.

Comment 82 on Site Improvements

I light of the foregoing comments - I have a question. I have been thinking about setting up a group for Local Organizing and the Planetary Mind as ned is exactly the type of thing each community should be discussing in regard to the question, "What can We do to make Our community a better place to live?"

I was also thinking about asking the REDI board of directors - the local organizing group I am working with in Denver - if they would like to use the ned space for asynchronous decision making.

Is that the type of group proliferation the BOA wants to avoid? - or do those fit in with groups based on action and collaboration - that I would take special care to maintain? (I know that would give me two groups).

Comment 83 on Site Improvements

I guess we could. But let me ask you this.

Could you boot up the Local Organizing and the Planetary Mind group and initially have REDI as a thread within that group?

With FOOD CHAIN I found keeping things inside an active group was powerful. When orgs tried to "break out" of the FOOD CHAIN group too soon, they often didn't have enough traction and members to really get enough followers or support to remain active/viable. Think about the two most active "groups" on o/net. Crisis in the Sudan with the changing monthly discussion, and FOOD CHAIN with the changing monthly discussion.

Hmmmm. Maybe starting new groups even isn't so much about more points to get them started, but 2-5 points a person...and many more people needed to start one. Just thinking out loud.

Comment 84 on Site Improvements

Some immediate thoughts and questions:

Why is it necessary to have group 'OWNERS' in the big capital letter ownership sense that I think is being referred to here ?

Isn't there a better distinction to be made between 'Founders' who set up and seed the group (or groups) and the more democratic sense of ownership vested in the participants in the group or the threads created under the umbrella of the group ?

Isn't the understandable tendency to organise possibly at odds with the desirable objective of building a self regulating community ? Or has that ideal been shelved ?

Is there an assumption at work here that groups are tablets of stone intended to stand the test of time ? Aren't more fluid structures equally valid and workable ?

Is the drive to archive The Other Place also tempting <Ned> to set out its stall with one eye on history and future archives rather than accept that ideas flow, discussions start and stop and groups fold through inactivity ?

Why can't groups be started and folded - into an archive if necessary - when they run out of steam ?

If we're being very tidy with stuff, shouldn't we also be tidy with people ? Isn't it logical - if we can leave a group with one click - to also provide for members to leave <Ned> with one click from their profile page ?

Doubtless more to come but that's enough for now. ;)

Comment 85 on Site Improvements

Mark said:

Could you boot up the Local Organizing and the Planetary Mind group and initially have REDI as a thread within that group?

That's an interesting view of "nested groups" that has got me thinking . . .

One of the projects of LOPM is the Community Portal software that would allow REDI exposure, transparency in decision making and transparency in accounting within its locality, as a part of the local organizing effort. I see that project as having potential value to David Bale's WWC and all the local ned organizations - as well as supporting the open source community. How do those groups nest? Perhaps there is an even better way to do it. I'll think about it some more since I am in no particular hurry.

Comment 86 on Site Improvements

John Firth said:: Is there an assumption at work here that groups are tablets of stone intended to stand the test of time ? Aren't more fluid structures equally valid and workable ?

There's some infrastructure involved in groups... In the real world, it's probably analogous to building (or leasing) a meeting / working space. So I wouldn't say set in stone, but I would associate groups with a committed group of people.

Is the drive to archive The Other Place also tempting <Ned> to set out its stall with one eye on history and future archives rather than accept that ideas flow, discussions start and stop and groups fold through inactivity ?

Folding groups through inactivity is a good idea. Right now there's no good way to do that with the current software. So right now, we want to avoid creating groups that don't already have some real-world traction with a group of people.

Your other ideas all look good and reasonable too.

Comment 87 on Site Improvements

OK Jim, so it seems there's two things at work here:

First, the activity of forming, expanding, disbanding or forming new groups. All processes that could still happen in the same or adjacent meeting rooms in one building.

Second, the signposts that enable us to find our way to the building and then to the right meeting room.

Maybe recognising these differences simplifies matters.

In other words, am I talking about groups as living things and part of the process of interaction on <Ned> whilst you are talking about groups for perfectly legitimate organisational and navigational reasons ?

If so, maybe we need to define our terms. If we're thinking only about navigation and filing then maybe it's simpler to think of 'categories' and not groups.

We can all recognise broad navigational categories (e.g. politics, religion, health & welfare etc) and some groups (activities) will fall under more than one category.

But this shouldn't matter - groups can be under more than one category. The important thing is that people can easily find their areas of interest quite quickly.

I do appreciate the need for navigation.... try navigating on Razoo (even in their early days) and it's already a mess.... so I suspect that we're not really disagreeing just placing different meanings on the notion of groups.

But then I guess you'll quickly correct me if I'm wrong. :)