:Title: Soap Project - Development :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 03:16:43 PDT :URL: http://www.ned.com/group/neduganda/news/1/ Lay out of the budget plan and getting started ---- **Comments** :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:46:28 PDT **REQUIREMENTS AND COST (Ushs) FORMAKING LIQUID SOAP** Below are the requirements to be in place before getting to the chemical and later liquid soap. 1. *Universal-wide range PH indicator of 1-14 or 2-10.5 =6500 (Ph paper:Litmus Paper)* 2. *Mingling(mixing) stick = 2500* 3. *Weighing scale...........=7500* 4. *Gas Mask...................=6000* 5. *Containers(3)..............=18000* 6. *Water tank(1).............=15000* Total...............................= **55,500 Ushs** **Chemicals and the Cost for making 400litre** 1. sulphonic Acid................20 kg*1kg =5000 =100,000 Ushs 2. Caustic soda...................2-2.6kgs (sodium Hydroxide) 5kgs=40,000 Ushs @8000 3. Tibro /Ungerol/Slies.........20kgs @5500=110,000 Ushs 4. Urea...............................4kgs @1500=6000 Ushs 5. Sodium Metasilicate.........4kgs @8000=32000 Ushs 6. colour (Apple Green).........1kgs @28000 Ushs 7. Perfume (Lemon,Lavender).1 kg @32000 Ushs 8. Water...............................400 litre @ 100=2000 Ushs 9. Salt...................................5kgs@250=1250 Ushs Total.................................................... **251250** **Other costs** Labels....(40 stickers on the containers)......................................32000 Ushs Packing 5,10 and 20 litre jerican plus (recycled water bottles),........20000 Ushs Marketing.................................................................................20000 Ushs Transport cost...........................................................................50000 Ushs Total.............................................................................. **=122,000Ushs** **Grand total..................................................................428,750 Ushs only** This is the amount required to make 400litres of liquid soap and sales possibly. 5 litres sells for 7500 Ushs. Waiting for all comments and advice towards the soap development in Gulu ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:52:54 PDT To make 400 litre after getting started ,the cost of the other materials wont be required especiall one which are fixed like the containers but the exact amount for the the chemicals which will produce liquid soap is **251250** ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:10:50 PDT What are the labor costs? Who will be making the soap. Will it be just you or or others involved? How will the profit be divided? Where will you make the soap? Is there any rent involved? Will fuel (charcoal, gas??) be needed in the process. This is a good start but we need to fine tune the business plan a little so we can project the profits and the sustainability of the program. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:14:33 PDT Also, the chemicals you have listed...Is this enough to only make the 400 liters? Is there a cost difference if you buy the chemicals in larger quantities? The 40 labels....are these to be printed by a local printer? ---- :Author: Ndelo Peter :Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:23:21 PDT Hey munno, the members from kampala need the soap knowledge. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:28:52 PDT I will be the one making the liquid soap because it require little labor especiall for few littres like 400 and other women after teaching them how to make it. At the centre.No rent is involved. No fuel is required Evvy Bryning said: What are the labor costs? Who will be making the soap. Will it be just you or or others involved? How will the profit be divided? Where will you make the soap? Is there any rent involved? Will fuel (charcoal, gas??) be needed in the process. This is a good start but we need to fine tune the business plan a little so we can project the profits and the sustainability of the program. ---- :Author: Grace Ayaa :Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:36:53 PDT Good Luck dear, it has been a very long struggle , wish it could be successful this time. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:48:22 PDT Munnu, Perhaps the best place to start is with a statement of purpose or goals. Is this to be a community project or is this just your project? Can you please write a brief description of what you want this project to accomplish. What you goals are? Once we have that clearly defined the rest of the business plan can be organized so that the goals are met. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 23:10:08 PDT Well,at the start of it all this project was intended to help part of a community here in Gulu which really had nothing but depended on making the pyparius mats as their source of income year after year but remained still poor and I thought this would be much helpful. However,The Lia community also needed this same help and really wanted to learn how to make liquid soap because our beads market was abit low and No market days but this liquid soap sells well and because there are no people who make but its needed by many large and small scale,I saw the need to have it all learnt round.However,It was not simple to get the knowledge to make but the all thing was to get trained in the city of Kampala and find out the raw material source and difinately get started. And now if it gets started probably all members will have to be thought how to make it because its very simple and the market is there even the community members are the source of market because they will need to use it. Its a community project though I used my personal saving to get trained .I'll trained all the Lia/Ned members how to make it and we have alarge market. Thanks y'all. ---- :Author: Okello Morris Barry :Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:57:16 PDT I wish only success for the project so that community of all the three centers of Gulu, Kampala and Opok benefited from it,not only specialised on one thing. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 05:42:07 PDT Excellent. I think it is a great idea to set this up as a community project to supplement the members income. And it will be very good for it to be available to all three centers. So, here are my next questions: 1. The price that you list is to sell 5 liters for 7500US. Is this the price that you will sell the soap to members making it the wholesale price? If so, what price will they sell to customers for? This is assuming that they will buy the soap from you and then resell it. 2. If this is not a wholesale price, then how will the profits be distributed to the community? I am asking these questions so we can write a solid business plan in order to get a loan to start this up. Right now it is just not clear how the profit will be used or the community will benefit. lets get it very clear from the beginning so there are no misunderstandings. It is wonderful that you are so enthusiastic about this and have put so much of your own effort into it. I think it is a good idea and could be very successful but we need to get the plan really fine tuned. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 05:45:09 PDT I also forgot to ask you how long does it take to make the 400 liters of soap and how long do you think it will take to sell it. It would be good to know what you plan as the monthly production will be. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 06:15:30 PDT Its my pride to also answer the good questions that you have towards this project.The 7500 Ushs is the price for the consumers but the idea of wholesale and retail price wont be much differen but however to sell in wholesale will depend on the production capacity and the wholesalers who will intend to buy from us and sell in the neigbouring districts of Kitgum ,Lamwo and Pader and may be west nile. Members them selves will be the source of market ,hospitals around ,schools and other institutions this means that many members will be involved in the production to suit the market demand but still with more members it will mean more capital and middle men will be eliminated but only if we will have to deal directly with the consumers in the different ares I had mentioned earlier. And the distribution of the profit will be distributed in the form of **bananas** as it was before where by you you partispate in doing sometime it means you will given bananas and at the end of the month you recieved it inform of cash ,because this production will be as group.(group production) Making 400 litres depends on the numbers of people partispating and the size of the containers and time you have devoted to do it but generally it takes 24 to 48 hours . ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 06:21:44 PDT Okay. I have more questions but will ask them later. I have to go to work now (here it is almost 6:30am) but later today I will try and set up a workspace for this project so we can get all the details spelled out in one place. It is sounding very good. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:26:12 PDT I have started a workspace for us to work on I am having trouble making a link to it so I will just put the url http://www.ned.com/group/neduganda/ws/index/?e=editpage I have listed all your information and in each category there are questions that need to be answered. ---- :Author: Mark Grimes :Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 22:20:35 PDT Munnu. Two questions. Can you list 2-3 orgs that would buy the liquid soap if you had it tomorrow? Who all is responsible for selling the soap in Gulu? ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 23:00:00 PDT 1.Norwegian Refugee Council(NRC) 2.Anaka Hospital and **Gulu Hospital** 3.War Child Holland. I will be responsible but the all thing will be for the marketing department (Ned Uganda). ---- :Author: Rory Turner :Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 05:48:07 PDT This is looking quite promising! Good work Munnu! It looks like a 40% markup for these costs, which is not bad, but I think it wise to consider labor as a cost also after this prototype is tested. Am I correct in converting this startup cost amount to be about $250 US dollars? ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 06:26:54 PDT I actually think the figure will be $300 needed to start the project. There are no actualy labor costs. The members of the community have a system in place called 'bananas'. They participate in projects and earn bananas (points) and then at the end of the month their bananas are exchanged for a share in the profits. The number of shares they earn is based on the number of bananas they have earned. Here are some more questions: 1. How many liters of soap do you project that you will makes each month 2. How many members do you think will participate in this 3. The group production of jewelry earns 1 banana for 2 hours of work. Will this be the same for the soap. 4. How many bananas will be earned for selling. 5. You have listed the cost of 5 liters as =7500. Is this the going rate 6. How much will you sell a smaller amount for like a water bottle full. 7. Is liquid soap currently available in the area or do they bring it in from outside 7. How much are the places like the hospital paying for the soap now ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 06:33:23 PDT Munnu Morrish said: 1.Norwegian Refugee Council(NRC) 2.Anaka Hospital and **Gulu Hospital** 3.War Child Holland. I will be responsible but the all thing will be for the marketing department (Ned Uganda). These look good. Have you actually talked to them and will they agree to buy from you? To work on your projections for production, can you estimate how much each of these would use. ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:52:22 PDT What about quality control? ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:02:22 PDT And on a more personal note... Munnu Morrish, you are a shining star. I am so inspired to see the seriousness with which you have pursued this idea so far. Months ago, I remember you asking me what you needed to do to get it off the ground and I told you to learn everything you could. Look how far you have come, and how much you know about soap now! When you've gathered the knowledge you need, the resources will fall into place - good on you for keeping faith in that. I am very impressed and proud of you. It's a pleasure to watch you grow through this experience. Congratulations - you will soon be there! ---- :Author: Mark Grimes :Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 22:45:45 PDT :Modified: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 22:47:51 PDT Munnu, great stuff indeed. Let me explore some ideas regarding funding this. Let's look at 3 different funding scenarios. 1. A traditional microfinance funding of 35% interest over 18-24 months. 2. A ned.com based microfinance based funding of 20-25% interest over 12 months. 3. a mirco-angel investment which then returns 5-10% of all future cashflow which would entail a permanent dividend (to then be reinvested in other local ventures) on an ongoing basis. Which of these three looks most appealing? ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 22:57:41 PDT :Modified: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 23:01:32 PDT Evvy Bryning said: Munnu Morrish said: 1.Norwegian Refugee Council(NRC) 2.Anaka Hospital and **Gulu Hospital** 3.War Child Holland. I will be responsible but the all thing will be for the marketing department (Ned Uganda). These look good. Have you actually talked to them and will they agree to buy from you? **Robert Oketa(breakfast cordinator) works in the security department with the NRC and is the one working on the connecting us for this source of market as well as War Child Holland.** **For the case of the Anaka and Gulu hospital,George Ovola and Finny have some control on the departments of cleaning and maintaining the hospitals so they promised me they would buy our liquid soap.** **Gulu University is another market.Katusi Denis is incharge of compound designing and maintainance and he said they can buy up to 60 litres a month** **Gulu clinical school.Micheal Akena the production manager Gulu is connecting this and he said they use 80 litres amonth** To work on your projections for production, can you estimate how much each of these would use. **NRC 50 litres** **Gulu University 60 litres** **Gulu clinical school 80 litres** **WAr Child 60 litres** **ACDI-VOCA USAID 10litres** (micheal) ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 23:55:35 PDT Mark Grimes said: Munnu, great stuff indeed. Let me explore some ideas regarding funding this. Let's look at 3 different funding scenarios. 1. A traditional microfinance funding of 35% interest over 18-24 months. 2. A ned.com based microfinance based funding of 20-25% interest over 12 months. 3. a mirco-angel investment which then returns 5-10% of all future cashflow which would entail a permanent dividend (to then be reinvested in other local ventures) on an ongoing basis. Which of these three looks most appealing? **3** I think is the best just because it will the be reinvested in other local ventures) on an ongoing basis.I f I understood it correctly. Thanks Mark ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 03:58:19 PDT Christina Jordan said: What about quality control? **Inventory team** will have to see the quality of the liquid soap is meeting the market demand. ---- :Author: Jim Carroll :Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 06:05:03 PDT For a business plan, a bank might want to see a few aspects of quality control. For each ingredient that you receive, what can possibly be wrong with it, and how can you evaluate it for quality? Maybe it's important that the Sodium Metasilicate be dry, and a quick quality check is to see if it hasn't clumped because of moisture. Perhaps the PH tester could be used occasionally on incoming sulphonic Acid (sulfonic might be a more common spelling) to check its quality as well. The final product might have a test for the thickness of the liquid soap. How should it look when a spoon is dipped into the soap, and lifted out? If the soap drips in a steady stream, you pass, if it sticks to the spoon too much then it fails. If the soap is too thick, can it be thinned so that it does pass? Does any part of the process have to be changed on especially hot days? etc. (caveat: I know little about soap and less about business plans.) ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:05:51 PDT Munnu, don't forget that quality control has a cost. The inventory team will need to be trained and paid somehow. You'll need to factor that in. Will you have a soap production manager? Will that person earn anything more than the other *banana* earning participants? There is also a cost there to consider. You might put some thought into how to work that into your calculations. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:33:26 PDT I have spent that last few days doing some research and also talking to a lot of people about this project. I have a lot to discuss so I am going to break it up into segments to make it easier to follow and to comment on. I will be cleaning up and updating the workspace also in the next couple of days. My input will follow. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:48:47 PDT **Financing** It is my oppinion that we should not take out a loan to start this project. Having big loan payments and high interest will slow down the profitability of the project. I really think the best way to go is to get someone or some group to donate the start up money. I have already spoken with some people and this is very doable, especially if it is set up to benefit the community not only for this project but will grow to finance future projects at the centers. I am quite confident that I can raise the seed money necessary to get this fund started. Some of the input I have gotten from people who will be willing to donate are: 1. The projects must be for the community and should involve at least 10 members to qualify. This means that a minimum of 10 members must sign on to the project and agree to work it. By making it strictly voluntary, you run the risk of the project only involving 1 or 2 people and then it becomes more of an individual project rather than a community effort. 2. This start up money will not be a loan that has to be repaid. Instead, a percentage of the profits which will be determined will be taken off the top and put back in the fund. This will then allow for other projects to be funded. 3. The funding of projects will be on a rotating basis to make it fair for all the centers. For instance, this project is for the Gulu center. The next project to be funded would have to be for Kampala or Opok Farm. This way all communities have an opportunity. In the event that other centers do not have projects to submit, then the same center could get funded again if they submitted a viable project. 4. We would need to determine how many projects could be funded each year. Possibly 1 project each quarter (4 per year) This would need to be discussed Comments? Suggestions? ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:59:37 PDT **Safety First** I am very concerned about safety in starting this project. The only safety that is mentioned in the plan so far is a gas mask and after doing my research, I do not feel like this is enough. Here are some suggestions for the safety policy. 1. It is vitally important for the well being of the company and the workers, that safety is insured, hence the phrase, **“Safety First!”** 2 The work area should be kept clean and free of debris. The floor should be swept daily and all containers and utensils should be washed after use. 3. Alkali solutions are **caustic**. Rubber gloves must be worn whenever handling alkali crystals and solution. 4. Safety glasses must be worn while mixing alkali to protect the eyes from splashing. Even the finished product that gets in the eyes can burn. 5. Care should be taken not to breathe any of the fumes that rise up from mixing the soap products. Gas masks should be worn and the work area should be located away from where people live and work to protect them from the fumes. 6. Clean, cold water must be close at hand in case of alkali or fire burns. Rinsing eyes or skin with cold water is the standard antidote for exposure. Milk contains lactic acid and will neutralize alkali should it get in the eyes or be ingested. This may prevent blindness that can result if alkali remains in the eye. 7. Lifting large kettles and containers of ingredients should be done with care and with the help of co-workers. Safety equipment needed: More than one gas mask At least 6 pairs of safety glasses or goggles buckets to hold cold water in case of spills At least 6 pairs of rubber gloves These items will need to be priced so they can be added to the budget. Please note that this is not a dictate but I strongly suggest these items be in place for the safety of the workers. comments? suggestions? ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:05:34 PDT **Pricing** When starting a new product line it is not always the best plan to sell at a very low price. A small scale production cannot survive and grow with a very small profit margin and when they have to raise their prices they run the risk of losing a lot of their business. Research the current market. List the prices of all the other liquid soaps that are available. Test the other products and make a list of what is good about them and what is not so good. Determine your price by comparing your product with the others. Some questions to ask are: How much do the other products cost: How much of each product is needed to make a basin of soapy water for washing dishes. Does your product use less, more or the same? How do the other products smell? How does your product smell? How do the other products feel on the skin? How does your product feel? After you get a good comparison done it will be easier to price your product so that it is a saleable and yet profitable product. I know that you have set your price in the budget at =7500 for 5 liters. How did you arrive at this price? It seems rather low to me. We need to list all of the different containers you will sell in, how much in is each type of container, and list the price of each. It is sometimes effective to give a discounted price for larger containers. This encourages buyers to purchase larger quantities to save money. comments? suggestions? ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:23:47 PDT :Modified: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:43:58 PDT **Marketing** The first rule of marketing, and I know this since this is the field I work in, is you MUST have a plan. You cannot expect to succeed without a plan to follow. The plan can and will change as the business progresses. Currently your plan is to just have people sell and that is too vague. There needs to be a plan in place before the first bottle of soap is made. Some things that will be important in the marketing of the soap are: **Eye appeal** What kind of containers will the product be in? What will the label look like? What will the name of the product be? It should be something catchy and easy to remember Will the color of the soap be attractive? Once the product is made the most important aspects of marketing will be **Quality, consistency, availability** It must be a good product that works each time It must be the same. Each batch, each bottle, each liter MUST be the same quality, look the same, smell the same. It must be available. Customers will not be faithful if it is available one week but when they go to buy it again it is not to be found. A couple of ideas for marketing: Solicit sales to institutions, restaurants, organizations and other groups. You have already started on this and that is good but more will need to be done and FOLLOW UP will be very important. If you sell 5 liters to a restaurant you need to go back to them to get the next order in a timely manner. Ideally this will be when they are low but not completely out. If they run out and you are no where to be seen they will just buy somewhere else. Get members to participate by setting up a display of soap in their market booths. I know that there are many members who run booths in the markets selling vegetables, charcoal and other food stuffs. Convince them to also sell the soap. They will turn the money over to the project from the sales and will earn a commission for each bottle they sell. Set up a place at the center to sell the soap. Give the members a "NeD" discount to get them buying the soap. Remember, the more people who use, the more people will hear about it, the more people will want to buy it. In the beginning you will have to convince people that they want your soap. One way to do this locally is to hold demonstrations. Here at our local markets they demonstrate new products. For instance if a person is selling a vegetable chopper, they set up a table and start chopping vegetable and they talk about the chopper, how easy it is to use, how convenient it is, how much time it will save. And they sell sell sell. It is very effective. Your demonstration could be to have a basin of water and show how little you have to use to get all this soapy water, let them put their hands in the water to feel how nice it is on their skin. Wash some dishes and show how clean they come. Wash a shirt or another piece of clothing. Talk about how dirt wears down the fibers of the clothes and makes them wear out faster. Clean clothes last longer. Show them how the dirt is removed in the soapy water. Let them smell how nice their clothes will smell using the soap. And then sell, sell, sell. It works. comments? suggestions? ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:29:37 PDT **Organization** I absolutely agree with Christina. This is a voluntary project but you will need to have a few people in place that are permanent and consistent. Production manager: The most logical person for this is Munu since he is the one who knows how to make the soap. Quality Control Manager: Very important for this to be the same person so that it is done the same on each batch. If you just use anyone, your quality could be very different each batch. Marketing Manager: Someone must be in charge of keeping track of the product. Who is selling and how much. Who has product in the booth at the market. How much is sold from the center. This should be someone who can keep good records as this will be critical in the profitability of the project. At the beginning, since money will be scarce, these positions could be paid in extra bananas. Later, as the project becomes more successful they could switch to paid positions. comments? suggestions? ---- :Author: David Braden :Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:15:24 PDT Evvy, I have been following your comments with admiration. The only thing I would add is that I would want to know what the waste products are, are they potentially harmful, and is there a cost to waste disposal. I do have some thoughts on soap making as a community activity. Right now it seems that the bananas issued will be a claim on soap making profits - I am not clear on how bananas issued for bead making and bananas issued for soap making interact. Perhaps both are redeemable for other things beside profit - such as internet access. If so, how are those accounts reconciled? I do not want to stray off topic so I am going to set up a new discussion for this - advocating a full fledged `community investment enterprise`_. .. _`community investment enterprise`: http://www.aboutus.org/3DN_Community_Investment_Enterprises ---- :Author: Mark Grimes :Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:23:50 PDT Evvy, you are letting your **COO** side out, great work...just fantastic. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:43:19 PDT David, You are so right about the waste products. I do have that on my list but just hadn't gotten to that yet. But, since I am very much an enviromentalist, I think it should definitely be addressed. Mark, thanks for the encouragement. I am having a ball!! Just to let everyone know, the banana program works like this with the group craft production and I assume would be similar in other projects. A member earns 1 banana for every 2 hours they work on group production of beads and jewelry during the month. At the end of the month the group production jewelry is bought on market day. All the bananas are added up and the amount of money earned is divided by the number of bananas given. This determines the value of 1 banana. example: 500,000 shillings are paid for the jewelry. 125 bananas have been earned by the group therefore, each banana = 4000 shillings. so if mary has 15 bananas, she would get 60,000 shillings Susan has 9 bananas, she would get 36,000 shillings George has 3 bananas, he would get 12,000 shillings Everyone gets paid for their level of participation and participation is strictly voluntary. I do not know if they can exchange for other things other than cash. With the soap project the total profit would be divided by the number of bananas given to determine the value of each banana. The more soap sold, the more value to the banana. This is why is it so important to have the guidelines for how many bananas will be awarded ironed out before we start. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:34:51 PDT **Sustaining the Business** The main reason why so many small businesses fail here in the US is that the owners try to live off of the business before it is ready to support them. They make the initial investment and get started but then they start taking out the profits to live on. Soon, the money is gone and they have no more resources to invest in the business. This why there are such huge numbers of small businesses that fail in the first year. The flaw that I see in the business plan so far is that there is no provision for using part of the profits to keep the business running. You make the first 400 liters of soap, sell them, split up the profits and now what? You now need money to buy the raw materials to make the next batch. Where will that come from? It is actually quite simple. A percentage of the profits must be taken off the top to re-invest in the business to make it sustainable. That will mean that the members, at least in the beginning, will make less money for themselves. According to your plan the second batch of soap will cost 373,250 to produce and market. Lets just round that up to 375,000 so we have a little cushion. That means it will cost 937.50 shillings to produce one liter of soap This amount will need to be withheld from the profits to make the next batch of 400 liters You plan on selling the soap for 7500 per 5 liters This equals 1500 shillings per liter That means a profit of 562.50 shillings per liter That works out to 63% of the profit going to pay for materials leaving 37% as profit. That is on the low side. I work in the food industry and the profit margins average 42% Now you will have to put a percentage of the final profit back into the community project fund. Lets use 15% to start. That means 84.38 goes into the fund leaving a net profit of 478.12 per liter **Total figures for 400 liters:** 600,000 in sales 375,000 invested back in the business 33,752 put into the community project fund **191,248 net profit to be split.** If 10 members participated equally that would mean they would each get approximately only 19,125 shillings for each 400 liter batch that is made and sold. **So some questions to be asked:** Is the product priced correctly? How could we cut costs to increase profits? Like buying chemicals in larger amounts at a discount. Is 10 people too many or is the number actually too low. How many liters do you think can actually be sold in one month? comments? suggestions? ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:52:57 PDT I think you should count on putting the shs 375,000 plus a bit more back into the business so that it can grow beyond 400 liter batches. The number of people doesn't really matter if you're working with bananas. Everyone will want to have the opportunity to participate. One of the big problems we had with the invisible children project was that only some members benefitted and this created divisiveness. Even if the bananas they earn only pay for a members transport to come and spend an afternoon making soap, they will all definitely want the opportunity to learn. So you may have 70 people earning bananas that all have a very low value at the beginning, but then some will find they are better at it than others or they have more time to put in. I am concerned though, that the banana value shouldn't be calculated until the soap has actually *sold* - just meeting a production quota is not enough if the product doesn't get sold. If you have a bulk order to meet, then it's easier. But I am afraid it's going to be hard to get any bulk orders until you've actually got a product people can try for themselves. I'm wondering if the returns on the first batch won't need to be calculated differently somehow. Not sure what I mean by that, though. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:20:59 PDT Christina Jordan said: I think you should count on putting the shs 375,000 plus a bit more back into the business so that it can grow beyond 400 liter batches. Yes, I agree. Ideally the business should be designed so that there will always be funding available to make the soap that is needed. So you may have 70 people earning bananas that all have a very low value at the beginning, but then some will find they are better at it than others or they have more time to put in. That is sort of how I figured it would work in the beginning. I only used 10 as a figure for example since I used that figure as the necessary number for starting a project. I am concerned though, that the banana value shouldn't be calculated until the soap has actually *sold* - Absolutely! I guess I should have made that more clear. The profit figures I was using was for SOLD product. I was assuming in my calculations that all 400 liters were sold. Until a product is sold, there is no profit. I'm wondering if the returns on the first batch won't need to be calculated differently somehow. Not sure what I mean by that, though. I am not sure. Maybe this needs more thought and discussion. I am waiting to input more when I get some response from Munnu and maybe some other members. ---- :Author: Chris Cook :Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:43:41 PDT Just a couple of thoughts re financing. You might see if the supplier of chemicals is prepared to work, at least in part, on a "partnership" basis. ie you give him an agreed cost price, and then a share of the net profit. Or maybe you give him a small share of the gross revenues in return for time to pay = credit. There are many ways to configure a partnership. Alternatively you get an investor as a "Capital Partner". The deal is that he puts up his money for the working capital to pay the supplier, and in return you give him x% of the GROSS revenues, and pay your supplier and yourselves from the balance (100-x)%. For as long as you use his money you give him this "Equity Share". If you pay back half, then his "Equity Share" drops by half. Evvy Bryning said: **Sustaining the Business** The main reason why so many small businesses fail here in the US is that the owners try to live off of the business before it is ready to support them. They make the initial investment and get started but then they start taking out the profits to live on. Soon, the money is gone and they have no more resources to invest in the business. This why there are such huge numbers of small businesses that fail in the first year. The flaw that I see in the business plan so far is that there is no provision for using part of the profits to keep the business running. You make the first 400 liters of soap, sell them, split up the profits and now what? You now need money to buy the raw materials to make the next batch. Where will that come from? It is actually quite simple. A percentage of the profits must be taken off the top to re-invest in the business to make it sustainable. That will mean that the members, at least in the beginning, will make less money for themselves. According to your plan the second batch of soap will cost 373,250 to produce and market. Lets just round that up to 375,000 so we have a little cushion. That means it will cost 937.50 shillings to produce one liter of soap This amount will need to be withheld from the profits to make the next batch of 400 liters You plan on selling the soap for 7500 per 5 liters This equals 1500 shillings per liter That means a profit of 562.50 shillings per liter That works out to 63% of the profit going to pay for materials leaving 37% as profit. That is on the low side. I work in the food industry and the profit margins average 42% Now you will have to put a percentage of the final profit back into the community project fund. Lets use 15% to start. That means 84.38 goes into the fund leaving a net profit of 478.12 per liter **Total figures for 400 liters:** 600,000 in sales 375,000 invested back in the business 33,752 put into the community project fund **191,248 net profit to be split.** If 10 members participated equally that would mean they would each get approximately only 19,125 shillings for each 400 liter batch that is made and sold. **So some questions to be asked:** Is the product priced correctly? How could we cut costs to increase profits? Like buying chemicals in larger amounts at a discount. Is 10 people too many or is the number actually too low. How many liters do you think can actually be sold in one month? comments? suggestions? ---- :Author: John Powers :Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:41:16 PDT I'm afraid I have another one of my off-the-wall thoughts. I was thinking about packaging. As I understand it the product is like dish washing liquid detergent--good for washing pots and pans, and clothing. Here in the USA a popular treat is flavored water in a narrow plastic bag that is frozen, so it makes a frozen pop; these are about 1.5 liquid ounces US or about 5 deciliters. That's a good quantity of this soap, probably enough for a week's worth of washing for a household. Buying in this small quantity might be something many people could afford. I know that Uganda now has restrictions on plastic bags. But I looked to find rolls of plastic tubing online. It looks to me that this material would make low-cost containers for the product. It might entirely inappropriate--just me thinking aloud here. We are used to having containers that make small quantities of this kind of soap easy to measure out for each use. I am old enough that the dispensers for soap seem very new to me. It seems like they invent something new every year for the way soap is dispensed. If plastic bags would be a way to package this soap, it may be that inventing a dispenser to make using this soap easy would be a way of opening the markets to your product. The simple machine that comes to mind is a top part which is a hook to hold one end of the bag. At the other end is a spring clamp on a lever. When the lever is squeezed a small quantity of soap product is released. This machine could be made out of heavy gauge wire without specialized tools. Always I worry that my half-thought out ideas are a distraction. I don't mean them to be. My reasons for mentioning this idea is simply to make the point that the packaging of detergent is very important. A good idea for packaging could increase the value of the product. ---- :Author: Mark Grimes :Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:09:18 PDT :Modified: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:16:00 PDT There's oodles of great questions and ideas here. Oodles. And they are all great, and help thinking to the next level. I was pretty close to Munnu's age when I started by first biz, and I could not have answered most of the questions here when I had started out my first biz. It could be we need to consider what's been asked with all these questions and really look at the crucial ones. And really look at a test market, in the true sense of the term, and see what happens. Saftey first, that is crucial. Beyond that, it it much a matter of faith. Could it crater? (blow up?) Of course. I've had plenty of things blow up. Also built a multi-million dollar profitable business and help others do the same. Fail small. Start small. Try things. If 10% of "gross sales" goes back into other community projects I'd be thrilled to invest $100 towards the trial of this business venture...maybe more. And while I think all the questions here need attention, I don't want to get into analysis paralysis. I'd rather test and see what happens. Let's get pictures. Online reports every other day or so...and see what happens. The estimate need to launch is $250. Think we can get $500 and see is it can sustain itself from the ground up? 10% back into other community projects from gross sales? Build out the details and making it better as it is happening? I'd put $100 towards that. Anyone else? ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 12:56:14 PDT Chris, thank you for your input and your idea is certainly something to think about but I am not sure it is right for this type of project. First, it may end up being way to complicated for the members to manage. And, second and most important, I really think we need to avoid forming partnerships with outside businesses until we know exactly what we are doing. We have learned from experience that this can create difficult situations in Africa. John, your ideas about packaging are also interesting but for this first project we really need to keep it as simple as possible. We already have recycled water bottles available and will use larger containers that will be purchased for the larger amounts. As far as very small quantities, in Africa they are very accustomed to bringing their own containers and buying just what they need. It is something that is built into their market places. A vendor has a large drum of oil for instance and can sell it by the liter, or just sell a cup full. Somehow it works and I don't want to get too complicated in the beginning. Mark, thanks for the reality check. I like your term "analysis paralysis". Something I definitely think could easily happen. I believe that this project will be the first that will be sponsored by the Life in Africa -USA Community Project Fund.This will be tied to one of our focus areas... Income Generation. I will be soliciting funds to seed this and if all goes well the money will be in place by the end of this month. (I will remember your offer of $100 :) hehe) I will be working on the Life in Africa group page this week to spell out how the program will work. So, I think the financing will not be a problem. So, Munnu, we need to get moving. I have put a Things to Do list on the workspace. Please get these things done and questions answered as soon as possible. I would suggest you get a few other members to assist you. We need to get the actual product started, the name, and the price. From there we will be able to move forward very quickly. Let me know as soon as you are ready and we will move on to the next step. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 15:12:58 PDT Some of this questions needs community to first brainstorm and then I have all it posted here forinstance the name of the soap and few other things.probably tomorow meeting in Gulu will have ready. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:39:29 PDT Great Munnu, I look forward to hearing what the community comes up with. ---- :Author: Chris Cook :Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 07:05:01 PDT Thanks Evvy I understand your misgivings, but you won't find anything less complicated than a revenue or production-sharing partnership. What's complicated about saying we get x% and you get (100-x)% of everything we sell using your stuff? As opposed to 10 pages of boilerplate terms and conditions the customer doesn't understand a word of? Partnership structures like this have been around since the Year Dot: we're only codifying what people do already in most less developed countries. It's not the members you'll have trouble with, it's the "partners" who are accustomed to the toxic legal agreements they use now. But as you say - you know that already! Best Regards Chris First, it may end up being way to complicated for the members to manage. Evvy Bryning said: Chris, thank you for your input and your idea is certainly something to think about but I am not sure it is right for this type of project. First, it may end up being way to complicated for the members to manage. And, second and most important, I really think we need to avoid forming partnerships with outside businesses until we know exactly what we are doing. We have learned from experience that this can create difficult situations in Africa. ---- :Author: Ben Parkinson :Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:38:35 PDT I am aware of an organisation that is making soap amongst rural co-operatives in Nigeria. It is one of their most successful products and sells well in the local market. My ambition for them is to take advantaged of the booming fragranced cosmetics market in the West, particularly as cosmetics made from natural products are soon to be able to be registered as Fair Trade products. The addition of a bit of banana or cocnut into a soap seems to multiply its value by a factor of 3, especially if it is a natural product. I really feel that tropical countries have an opportunity here, which has yet to be capitalised upon. If you have such a "fragranced" product and would be interested in selling it to the UK, then let me know - I'll help! ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:34:36 PDT Hi Ben, Wow, thank you so much for chiming in. Currently the product the community will be making is chemical based but I also would like to see the development of an all natural product but that will be down the line a bit. This is one of the things I will be discussing with the group when I go to Uganda for a month in Dec. Once we have such a product developed I will be happy to have your help. Stayed tuned and thank you for your interest. I would also love to have any contact information you have for the group in Nigeria. Can you point me to them? ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:50:29 PDT Ooh! Lets figure out what we need to grow at Opok Farms to eventually make natural soaps! ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:54:12 PDT you read my thoughts! What an opportunity ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:57:20 PDT Munnu needs to keep up his correspondence with Kaenfa here in Thailand. All of the soaps, shampoos, conditioners and body oils they make are organic. I think one of the things that was suggested was that Munnu catalog the available plants and is he wasn't sure what they were or what to do with them, to seal them and send them to Kanefa and he would test them for LiA. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:16:19 PDT Good info to have. I was not aware of this. I am working very hard to get both centers back to participating on line. With both centers moving to new locations and Onet closing down it is really hampered our online activity. Give it a couple of weeks and I think everything will get back to a better scenario. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:35:04 PDT :Modified: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:37:52 PDT Thanks Linda this is where we ended at the moment with kheanfa. local soap making Inbox **munnu kipsie2lov** **to kheanfa** **Jun 27** I m called munnu morrish and I very much appreciate the work of linda to connecting me to you.I hope I will get the best of the desired and the struggle I had been trying to make things happen. I have moved in most of the areas in search of making liquid soap and help the local poor community and me grow but is been a big challenge that I had not yet suceeded .I will put my trust in you for the benefit of the entire local community. below are thing things really I dream of making :liquid soap,solid soap though to come later. I will very much appreciate you and the Omidyar community want to know how far I and you are doing it. Thanks for now Below are what we have locally for the soap making but however nobody have ever made it. wood , ash lye,animal fat [from pigs] Reply Forward **Jul 9** Dear Sir What our community do many kind of community products. Such as herbal shampoo, dish detergent, wash clothes detergent, liquid soap which are very easy to the villeger to do. We do not have to invest a big money, only one or two big pot is enough and indigenous herb plus some little chemical material. I just would like to know some datas. 1. How much money that the involved villegers pay for soap product? 2. What amount of soap you wasnt to make per week? 3. Do you have any indigenious herb in your area? 4. Can you find some chemical material Which I will mention later? If I know these datas I will think over what we can cooperate Sincerely Yours, Kaenfa munnu kipsie2lov wrote: - Show quoted text - Reply munnu kipsie2lov to Kheanfa **Jul 12** 1.Five liters cost 7500Ushs 2.400litres is best per week 3.It would be very much better to know W have many kinds of herbs though I dont know there scientific names. 4.Yes.But they may be in the city which I can go and buy and this will require some Capital though And We made sample of Lighting candles. Thanks for your concern to help. **Linda Nowakowski said**: Munnu needs to keep up his correspondence with Kaenfa here in Thailand. All of the soaps, shampoos, conditioners and body oils they make are organic. I think one of the things that was suggested was that Munnu catalog the available plants and is he wasn't sure what they were or what to do with them, to seal them and send them to Kanefa and he would test them for LiA. ---- :Author: Ben Parkinson :Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:25:44 PDT Evvy Bryning said: Hi Ben, Wow, thank you so much for chiming in. Currently the product the community will be making is chemical based but I also would like to see the development of an all natural product but that will be down the line a bit. This is one of the things I will be discussing with the group when I go to Uganda for a month in Dec. Once we have such a product developed I will be happy to have your help. Stayed tuned and thank you for your interest. I would also love to have any contact information you have for the group in Nigeria. Can you point me to them? The organisation is Nehemiah Foundation International and their web-site is www.nfiafrica.org. Good luck with your project. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:35:34 PDT I met Norbert and discussed using the organic means in making this liquid soap.forinstance using Lemon Grass..in the process. I believe when the first test is done,and its sucessful,we will have liquid soap with different aroma and smell. The process is distilation. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:52:51 PDT After meeting with the community discussing ,brainstorming ,the soap name will be called... **GULU SOAP WORKS** ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 07:01:28 PDT You might then be able to say "Gulu Soap Works Soap works!" :-D ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:23:58 PDT Yeah, I like that. Congrats to the commnunity members. I think some progress is being made. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:23:19 PDT Thank you so much Ben. I visited the website this morning and was so impressed with what they have done. I love their goals and I see a great similarity with the goals of the communities in Uganda. I plan to contact Emmanuel. I can see that there is a great deal we can learn from him. Ben Parkinson said: Evvy Bryning said: Hi Ben, Wow, thank you so much for chiming in. Currently the product the community will be making is chemical based but I also would like to see the development of an all natural product but that will be down the line a bit. This is one of the things I will be discussing with the group when I go to Uganda for a month in Dec. Once we have such a product developed I will be happy to have your help. Stayed tuned and thank you for your interest. I would also love to have any contact information you have for the group in Nigeria. Can you point me to them? The organisation is Nehemiah Foundation International and their web-site is www.nfiafrica.org. Good luck with your project. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:52:23 PDT Hi Munnu, You are all making such a lot of progress. Its exciting to seeing it unfold. I've looked at the workspace and I just need a couple of clarifications. The soap that is already for sale you say sells for =28,000. What quantity does this buy? Also, is there liquid soap being sold in small quantities in the local market or is 3 liters the smallest size? Since all the chemicals come from Kampala it would be my suggestion to definitely buy in larger quantities after the first test batch. The transport will be too expensive to do for each batch. And finally, we need to rethink the packaging concept. I spoke with Christina yesterday and found out that we no longer have the large number of bottles to recycle. So, how will we package the smaller quantities? John posted earlier about an idea. Can you go back and take a look at that and see if it might be possible. I think everthing is looking really good. Is the community getting behind this and are they excited? Would love to hear what they are thinking and saying. ---- :Author: John Powers :Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 22:25:00 PDT Evvy made the point earlier about packaging in recycled bottles being the best just to get this project off the ground. That you don't have recycled plastic bottles now on hand, probably means you'll have to find some way of collecting some bottles to recycle. I have some ideas about packaging, but they get a little far afield. I started writing them here, but then thought it's not the best place. So I came up with a solution, I'll post it on a blog at Razoo. Earlier tonight I suggested to Munnu that he become the moderator of the `Appropriate Technologies`_ cause at Razoo. There are some other reasons I'd like him to have that, so please don't grab the moderator position unless he decides he doesn't want it. But you can go there later to see what I posted if anyone is interested in reading my post in my mad scientist mode. .. _`Appropriate Technologies`: http://beta.razoo.com/causes/appropriate_technologies ---- :Author: Mark Grimes :Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 22:31:20 PDT Ummm. The discussion forums at Razoo are rather empty at the moment. o/net makes up 2 of the top 6 orgs, yet there is no discussion there. None. A couple posts a day in an entire group. For now seems like posts are best done here...unless you know something I don't know. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 22:34:40 PDT I gotta be honest. I have been so dang busy I still haven't had time to figure out Razoo yet. Maybe I will have time next week. I didn't know they had a place for discussion. Where would I find it? ---- :Author: Mark Grimes :Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 22:39:50 PDT Evvy, that's part of the User Interface problem. It takes too much digging to get to any real discussion area. And once there...as it's too hard to find...no one is really talking. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 22:52:55 PDT Well, that makes me feel better. Thought I was a little dumb cause I didn't see it. Maybe later. ---- :Author: Mark Grimes :Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:09:40 PDT Razoo >> my world >> my groups >> your group. It is too deep down really. *Back to soap* ---- :Author: John Powers :Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 00:16:22 PDT :Modified: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 00:19:02 PDT LOL, yes but I'm too off-topic. There is a specific problem: packaging about 100 gallons of liquid detergent. We want this project to fly. The problem of packaging liquid soap, while not of huge consequence, is a wide spread one with considerable significance. David pointed out the issue of waste disposal as a cost. And Ben pointed out the market demand for natural products. What these two points reminded me of is "Natural Capitalism" a book by Paul Hawken and Amory Lovins. Actually I haven't read the book. But one idea along those lines is everything should either decay safely to dirt or recycled. The chemical industry has taken seriously turning the costs of pollution and turned the assumption around to how their processes turn pollution into product. When tinkering around in my head about packaging designs, I started with the notion that most dispensers for liquid soap in public places basically are holders for a plastic bag--a bladder of soap. I've looked into actually buying relatively small quantities of common plastic containers new and have been astounded by how much they cost. So I thought the packaging we in the West are familiar with simply too expensive. So the bladder idea for packaging made some sense. I checked into it and rolls of plastic tubing for covering parts to be shipped are available in various widths at low cost. Obviously the ends of the plastic would have to be sealed by heat. It seemed possible to package liquid detergent this way at a reasonable cost. Such packaging has some challenges, among them they would work best with some dispenser. A more fundamental challenge is the plastic bladder when empty is a kind of pollution unlikely to be recycled, and won't rot any time soon. So I tinkered around in my head a bit more with the problem of packaging liquid soap. It's an interesting challenge. It's not that I have a solution, but the outline of various possible solutions seemed visible. The notion of making a new invention for this project seems ludicrous. But if I could think of plausible solutions for this packaging problem in an off handed way, it doesn't seem this is an insolvable packaging design problem. What if it were an open source challenge? What if thousands of people tried to solve this problem? I bet good solutions would come up. Ben's point about natural soaps might also apply to natural packaging. So if some good packaging method for liquid soap could be made in Gulu maybe the packaging would be easier and more profitable to export than soap. I've written too much, and I don't mean to be distracting. My point that this problem seems to lend itself to some crowd sourcing. Perhaps more targeted than that, but say a project for Industrial Design student or even regular folks. I guess another point is the idea of leap frogging in technological advance. There's no reason why small scale manufacturing in developing countries cannot be innovative practitioners of natural capitalism. Indeed, I suspect that designs for the real world will come from projects like this one. ---- :Author: David Braden :Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 08:00:32 PDT John Powers said: Indeed, I suspect that designs for the real world will come from projects like this one. I have read Natural Capitalism and one of the points it makes is the waste inherent in individual packaging of things like cleaning supplies. According to the book the solution is for each of us to "own" a soap container and take it to be refilled whenever it is empty. ---- :Author: Chris Cook :Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 08:25:17 PDT Reminds me of my younger days in Derbyshire, UK when many Pubs had an "Off-sales" window, and you would turn up with a jug, ring the bell, and they'd open the window and then would "pull" a couple of pints straight from the barrel. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.... ...and neither is the beer... ;-( David Braden said: John Powers said: Indeed, I suspect that designs for the real world will come from projects like this one. I have read Natural Capitalism and one of the points it makes is the waste inherent in individual packaging of things like cleaning supplies. According to the book the solution is for each of us to "own" a soap container and take it to be refilled whenever it is empty. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 11:05:14 PDT Hi Chris and David, Thanks so much for this idea. It really goes along with my way of thinking as well. First, I am very much concerned about the environment and having been to Uganda and seen all the plastic, especially bags and wrappers, laying all over the ground it is troubling to me to think of adding to the problem. Especially in rural areas where there are little or no designated dumping locations. I agree 100% on the idea of the refillable soap container and think it could really work well in the local markets. It could even be a good marketing tool. The first purchase of the soap would include the container with the price adjusted to include the cost. Then the refills would be cheaper so the buyer would see the value of reusing the container. I did a little research and I don't think the cost would be too high. Perhaps Munnu could get some prices on empty containers that can be purchased there so we could come up with a plan. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 11:17:08 PDT Hi John, I have also done some research on your idea. And, I was talking to Christina and there is talk of this kind of packaging being needed at OPOK Farm for packaging products there. Dried fruit especially. The refillable container will certainly be practical for local markets but if we are going to eventially get the soap on the shelves of stores or even export (hey, I'm dreaming big) we would definitely need an alternate packaging system. I also like the idea of getting some people to brainstorm the idea and come up with a design of a simple, and of course cheap, system that might fit many different uses. You seem to have a good mind for this type of thing so maybe you can help us with that. It would out of necessity need to run on solar power and be able to accomodate different size bags. Most of the systems I found on line where not really designed for a rural African setting. How or where would one go to try and get a group to brainstorm? Colleges or University students maybe? Do you know anyone who might be interested? We need all the help we can get and would really appreciate any input. ---- :Author: David Braden :Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 12:26:25 PDT My wife and I own a devise called a seal-a-meal which we can't use anymore because we can't find bags to fit it. It is essentially an element that heats to a certain temperature and melts together the end of a plastic tube as John described. If you have photovoltaic (is that what you mean by solar powered?) it should be simple enough for someone handy to figure out how much electricity through a wire creates the right temperature. ---- :Author: John Powers :Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 14:25:21 PDT I thought about the seal-a-meal. I know that you aren't suggesting it as more than a sealer, but I discovered the plastic rolls for that thing are expensive. LOL I think for sealing the edges of the plastic tubes nothing more elaborate than a soldering iron might be required, that is, just a short length of iron rod with a tip filed on the end that can be heated. What would be great is to get rid of the plastic part of this entirely. Sorry to always go off topic... My father, 85,is a chemist. He's from New England so the first part of his career was in fiber chemistry. The early days were in cellulose chemistry. Just on the topic of my father the second half of his career was in water chemistry. The company he worked for was Calgon. Companies change so, but in the course of his career there was work with many consumer products as well as industrial chemicals. I've tried to figure out questions related to this project to ask him--lol I have to be careful because as a child to ask help with an arithmetic problem was to get a lecture on the history of mathematics and its place in human knowledge and civilization. The basic ingredient oddly for fibers like rayon was cotton. Cotton is a easy place to get cellulose for turning it into something else. A friend recently gave me a packet of `cigarette papers`_ from Brazil. I am interested in the product for many reasons, not the least of it is that it relates to the chemistry my father was doing in the 1940's. The cigarette papers are advertised as non-plastic, but I don't know what makes the material not plastic? In any case it is a biodegradable material made from vegetable matter. It's my opinion that fiber production is something that holds great promise for Ugandan agriculture and economy. But design goes in such directions that it's hard to predict anything. Along this off topic ramble I want to mention book that was very important to me and my thinking over the years, `Design for the Real World`_ by Victor Papanek. The book is still in print all these years! I did a `blog post`_ in April this year. I can't find my copy of the book right now. But in the book Papanek relates a story. A student (of his I think) designed a dinner plate set. The materials for the set made them durable, but would the plates would bio-degrade when their usefulness had expired. The shipping packaging for the set was also a drying and storage system for the set. When the design was entered into a competition the judges were especially scathing going so far as to call it "ugly." This design was made in the early or mid 1960's. Papanek was outraged that beauty in the ecological fitness and usefulness of this design wasn't seen. His whole life's work was dedicated to helping people come to see beauty in designs that really fit. I live near Pittsburgh. One of the schools here is Carnegie Mellon University and the school only attracts top students. Some of the future industrial designers for the world are trained there. Not that I know so many, but the students I have met don't seem to have been exposed to ideas from the likes of Victor Papanek or even Natural Capitalism. How to get the best young minds to apply their thinking to ecological designs is an important challenge. I think practical problems like the one this soap project has for packaging are inherently interesting. I want to find ways to make young designers aware of the specific--real world-- problems to solve. I think it's one way to get them to begin thinking ecologically. I know that I'm very off topic here and long. Still I wanted to get back to the `Appropriate Technologies`_ cause at Razoo. At minimum that page is a place for social bookmarking of potentially useful technologies which may have usefulness for future development in northern Uganda. I hope that Munnu will consider becoming the moderator because that's a way of signaling in the online world that he's interested in appropriate technologies. I also encouraged him to be on the look out for stories to contribute to `AfriGadget`_ so that he becomes known in an influential circle of doers in this way of thinking about technologies. All of this seems quite besides the point when it comes to thinking about getting the soap project off the ground. But the way I see it is that the soap project is only a part of a bigger "brand" that LiA is building. It takes time to build the networks which can establish this brand, but the effort seems worth doing. As a practical matter those at Razoo can help by adding appropriate technology links to the cause at Razoo and offer blog posts if you're moved to. I started thinking of how I can get connections to industrial design students at Carnegie Mellon, my social network offers some leads there. I'm sure that all of us have connections in our networks to people in industrial design too. So we can think of ways to bring those people into the project of solving the practical problems we face as we develop new industries in northern Uganda. All of this probably doesn't relate very much to the immediate problem of figuring out packaging for a batch of liquid soap to make and sell. But what I'm suggesting is that as part of a range of products LiA will produce the "brand" should become known for its ecologically sustainability. That makes sense not only as a practical matter, but also in terms of making the brand popular. .. _`cigarette papers`: http://www.aledinha.com/index.html .. _`Design for the Real World`: http://www.amazon.com/Design-Real-World-Ecology-Social/dp/0897331532/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-6330941-8490545?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189280086&sr=8-1 .. _`blog post`: http://bazungubucks.blogspot.com/2007/04/so-it-goes.html .. _`Appropriate Technologies`: http://beta.razoo.com/causes/appropriate_technologies .. _`AfriGadget`: http://www.afrigadget.com/ ---- :Author: David Braden :Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 14:57:22 PDT John, One of the great challenges we face building a future conducive to human life is building connections across interest and expertise so that "production" of any one item "fits" in the over all value flows. My example of the difference between specialist design and generalist design is `Multiple Use Projects`_. I agree - we're off topic - want to discuss this further somewhere? .. _`Multiple Use Projects`: http://www.aboutus.org/3DN_across_interest_and_expertise ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 15:55:41 PDT Here, outside the store or at the front of the store, there is a machine that looks like a vending machine. Probably looks like one because it is...duh. You can bring your water bottle and get it filled there. How about that in a store? OR just a number of convenient locations for refilling the container you sold them initially or even a larger container that they bring and then refill from at home. ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:34:36 PDT :Modified: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:41:37 PDT here's a slightly bigger picture to give us some food for thought. When Munnu went on the course to learn liquid soap-making, he didn't go alone. Ezra and Katusi also went to the same workshop, and when they got there they realized there were other things they could learn besides soap-making. So Ezra took a course to make household cleanser, and Katusi took a course on how to make candles. (They organized and paid for these courses with their own money - I was and am really proud of them for the initiatives in the works. So right now, right here, we are using Munnu's soap project for the Ned-Uganda community as kind of a model for thinking through the business plan before we (as Life in Africa) set out to raise funds to invest in helping Munnu start the project. Ezra and Katusi are already well advanced in working on their plans as well, and I've no doubt we will see those and others get off the ground - hopefully by the end of this year. So what I'm trying to get at is that when we think about how we get the products to the market, the packaging challenge with soap is the same packaging challenge we're going to have with cleanser and candles if we want to distribute them in shops. But what if we only sold at Ned locations and/or other Life in Africa communities. Sell at wholesale prices and don't provide containers unless people buy the container. I dunno - just a thought. At first glance this might seem risky, but when I stop and think about the market of households and small traders the community itself represents, it gets interesting. And the center in Gulu is moving (with a webcafe) to a location near a lot of university hostels. So if the center is already a place where potential consumers of household cleaners and candles are visiting, it seems to me we could pretty easily sell without packaging. If we are able to offer a modest number of ned community produced household products in bulk - at slightly lower prices than the packaged versions people buy in town - perhaps even on a membership basis... I think we'd actually get quite a lot of business. With both producer and consumer communities in Gulu, Kampala and out at the farm, I have a hunch there will be a lot more rapid and sustainable growth potential for household products made by the community than there ever was for jewelry. BUT - and this is a big but - I do not believe the new centers in either Kampala or Gulu are zoned for industrial production so these projects might have to *incubate* there in the early stages and then find somewhere else to grow. What I think that means is that we should probably be building expansion costs into the business and revenue sharing plan from the beginning. btw - there is also the booming southern Sudanese market to think about... ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:51:46 PDT forgot these ideas I wanted to mention - what if people could get paid for their bananas in soap, candles, charcoal or produce from the farm, etc. what if we encourage bringing your own containers and getting a below market price as a marketing gimmic, giving us time to develop other eco-friendly packaging options for expanding into shop sales. ---- :Author: John Powers :Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 18:20:16 PDT David Braden `wrote`_ in re my long ramble: "I agree - we're off topic - want to discuss this further somewhere?" That's a good idea, and one platform you are using well is AboutUs. I must admit not having spent the time to get up to speed with that Platform, so you remind me to do so. Nancy Peedle wrote somewhere towards the end of that other site that the site had served as a sort of Wal-Mart of social networking. Clearly Ned has will be too. I mention her comment because why the Wal_Mart aspect was so important was because of slow Internet speeds in Sierra Leone. So I will try hard to limit my scrawling here and link to them in other contexts as they might have some use. .. _`wrote`: http://www.ned.com/group/neduganda/news/1/74/ ---- :Author: David Braden :Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 06:39:07 PDT Christina said: what if people could get paid for their bananas in soap, candles, charcoal or produce from the farm, etc. What if we could also start a service economy in bananas for such things as cooking, cleaning, and education/child care? We can think in terms of all those things that can be produced and consumed locally not needing shillings. We could start a workspace on `Needs and skills`_ and see how many pieces we could fit into that. From `Integrated Production`_: The green house I would like to build has the following components: * Hay field - harvested to raise grasshoppers - fed to chickens - * chicken waste - to worm bed - worms to feed chickens - worm castings to planting bed - * planting beds - raise tomatoes, chili peppers and onions - waste to worm bed - * chickens, tomatoes, chili peppers and onions - go into Green Chili Sauce - * which goes to an attached restaurant serving smothered bean burritos and chicken enchiladas Anyone hungry? The basic idea is to include as many closed loop production/consumption cycles as possible to reduce cash costs. As cash costs approach zero, gross revenue approaches net income which can then be either distributed to the participants (workers) or reinvested in additional capacity. Or see George Chan's work at ZERI_. It is easier for me to think of those closed cycles if I enclose them in an entity - we could think of that "entity" as the community - or all those trading in bananas - or we could think of something less formal than a "corporation" such as Chris Cook's open corporate. .. _`Integrated Production`: http://www.aboutus.org/3DN_Integrated_Production .. _ZERI: http://www.zeri.org/case_studies_pigs.htm ---- :Author: David Braden :Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 06:41:48 PDT :Modified: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 13:25:05 PDT John Powers said: That's a good idea, and one platform you are using well is AboutUs. I must admit not having spent the time to get up to speed with that Platform, so you remind me to do so. I don't want to discourage you from exploring Aboutus but if all you want is a wiki space to refer to we could do `Packaging Brainstorm`_ here at Ned as well. ---- :Author: Mark Grimes :Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 08:30:41 PDT >>a wiki space to refer to we could do Packaging Brainstorm here at Ned as well.<< Agreed. Given Ugandan member familiarity with the UI at Ned, the workspace/wiki should probably be kept here. ---- :Author: John Powers :Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 11:58:39 PDT I haven't put much at the wiki space but have started. About Bananas. Urgh! Alternative currencies are a great interest of mine, but like most of my interests not thought out very well. From my not very well-thought out perspective let me offer a couple of thoughts. One type of alternative currency is Time Dollars. In time dollars one hour of time equals one time dollar. Time dollars can be used to exchange services of time across networks of participants. Some of the structure of time dollars is directly related to American law. Barter scripts, for example, are taxable; so alternative currencies which facilitate the exchange of commodities are greatly more complicated than time dollars. I discussed time dollars with my friends in Iganga. Edgar Cahn has talked about time dollars as the "kitchen table" economy. The first reaction to time dollars in Iganga was: "this is what Africans already do." Alternative currencies which can be used for commodities trading are substantially more complicated. One reason is that time dollars purposely don't contain a legally enforceable contract. Generally, when stuff is traded such enforceability is desirable. Jim Carroll in `Suggestions for Ned`_ wrote: Here's another idea. When a working person can feed their family, and their employment has something to do with a member of Ned... that Ned member gets a banana. just kidding :) (maybe) So in our community Munnu will get 20 bananas for 20 workers creating soap and making enough money to feed their families. (as soon as the sales start.) Ned's success could be the sum of its members bananas. Our goal could be 1200 bananas in two years. Attainable, motivating, and measurable goals. That is what looks good on any application for funding as far as I know. Jim's idea struck me as a very good one, and his notion of bananas more in line with the idea of Time Dollars than the barter Script Christina proposes here and now. My friends in Iganga couldn't see much utility for Time Dollars in Uganda and I understand where they're coming from. But around the developed world people are not so used to getting something for nothing so the Time Dollar programs have been quite successful in motivating people to give their time. In other words we like to think that our time counts. Someplace in these threads somebody said that maybe we should have apples, oranges and bananas. There's something to that I think. In any case I think it's very important to keep quite separate the notion of some sort time dollar system among Ned members and a barter script system so making the names different is one way to do so. On the ground in Uganda it also seems a bit tricky to establish an alternative currency where time may be converted for goods as well as time. However there are several models of alternative currencies that do just that to look at. Still it's worth noting that there are various purposes for alternative currencies which determine what the systems look like. I think a time dollar sorts of currency has great utility especially for coordinating efforts across this platform. But I also think it good to think of the bater scripts and the service scripts as separate entities. Perhaps we do need apples, oranges and bananas. .. _`Suggestions for Ned`: http://www.ned.com/group/ned/news/3/45/ ---- :Author: David Braden :Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 13:32:11 PDT The thing with workspaces in this software (and wikis at aboutus) is - it is important to keep track of how we can find them. I added a link back to my comment above but I would suggest that one of the owners set up a Ned Uganda Workspace Index workspace linked to the home page and the Packaging Brainstorm linked there as well. ---- :Author: John Powers :Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 14:52:54 PDT Thanks David for the bringing up the issue of finding workspace pages. I'm afraid I really have a lot to learn about using Ned and the other platforms. Something I'm curious about is whether anyone using de.li.cious has tags they use to identify stuff relevant to LiA? I note that LiA is not productive as it's used for something else. That I don't quite get tagging is obvious with the mess of tags I have at de.li.cious. I would like it if I could contribute to any efforts to submit bookmarks so that others interested in LiA projects could search for them and I could search for yours. Has this already come up? What's the tag to use? ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 15:36:27 PDT Here_ you will find what should be the index page of the Uganda workspaces. Right now the index page is taken by the Soap Project and I can not edit that page to make the necessary moves. I would be more than happy to straighten things out if someone would give me the permissions. On that page, I have indexed the members, workspaces and discussions. Currently they are alphabetical though I suspect there will be a better organization down the road. Is there any reason the members of the group are a private list? .. _here : /group/neduganda/ws/%3CNed%3E%20Uganda/ ---- :Author: anne marie bellavance :Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 15:44:50 PDT :Modified: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:21:12 PDT I just sent an email to Vermont Soap Company (located in Middlebury, VT) inviting them to participate in this discussion. They have held soap making workshops in `Ghana`_ and also link to a `distillation`_ system. *edit - also link to comprehensive training `manual`_ .. _`Ghana` : http://www.vermontsoap.com/ghana.shtml .. _`distillation` : http://www.vermontsoap.com/distillation.shtml .. _`manual` : http://www.vermontsoap.com/manual.shtml ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:15:59 PDT Thanks Anne Marie, that might prove helpful. Linda, I am not an owner of this group so I can't do anything. I think maybe Munnu set it up. Truthfully, I don't have a clue how to properly use the workspace and right now don't have time to stop and learn. I am knee deep in legal papers, forms to fill out and trying to make sense of what I am doing. I am also a bit frustrated. Hopefully, I will get a handle on things and be back here soon. Thanks to everyone for all your input. I have read and reread everything and I will have some ideas to post tomorrow. Hang in there Munno, there is going to be a soap project! I have faith in you and the community. ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:59:54 PDT Evvy, you are an owner of the group. If you can make me an owner for long enough to fix the workspaces I will resign immediately! ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 17:27:55 PDT now I really feel dumb. How do I do that? ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 17:30:35 PDT never mind. I figured it out and made you an owner. Thanks for the help. I will get up to speed on this stuff eventually. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 01:31:49 PDT Its not that because I did not really think of making you an owner but I was sick thats why I could not really respond to all this post and have everything running on and on and on.But now I'm recovering and If Evvy had not done it I promise I'll rectify this. Thanks for ya concern. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:01:24 PDT Hi Munnu, I hope you are feeling better. I think we should do as Christina suggested and keep the packaging simple in the beginning and still work on coming up with a better packaging method for later on. The important thing is to get the project going and start selling and making soap. What are your ideas on how we can package it in a simple manner just to get going. There are people trying to come up with a better system and we can implement that as it is developed. But what can we do now to get going? ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:22:49 PDT As I had intended to package it before, was to use this cheap used water bottles with different size and getting the bottles will not be very hard and i believe it should start off now(collecting) and storing this bottles at the centre. The breakfast club children can help in doing this as before they used to collet the polythene bags, bottle tops and others and I believe when it get ot collecting the bottles wont be a problem to em'.This bottles would sell cheaply.this will see one who collects more earn a token or anything equivalent. For litres 5 and above we shall buy packaging materials like Jericans of the 5,10 ,and 20 litres.This can be bought here in Gulu or when we get to Kampala to buy this chemicals because the cost in Gulu and Kampala varies. I believe this can work on this and help in getting started. Thanks. Munnu ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:31:30 PDT As a buyer, may I have the option of bringing my own container and getting it cheaper? ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:44:15 PDT Much cheaper.Remember you would have reduced the cost of production when you remove packaging cost as You have done. ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 04:41:32 PDT If you package in empty water bottles, I have two questions: 1. how will you seal the bottles? 2. do you plan to label them? ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 05:36:20 PDT I mean if you come to buy atleast we should have something for packaging even if it might be hard to seal the top though than not having anything at all.As its aplan to a have all this in place .like packaging we can sart with this or we wait any can work. Definately its necessary to label them but using other companies bottles.I dont know what happens yet. an Idea ---- :Author: John Powers :Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:13:04 PDT It isn't necessarily a cost savings when people bring their own bottles to be filled; the reason is there are transaction costs. When products are packaged in advance great care can be taken to measure the right amounts and it is easy to inventory simply by counting units. When bulk materials are measured out per customer there is the time it takes for the person to fill it. Also it opens up all sorts of opportunities for mistakes: more opportunity to spill, different kinds of containers, forgetting to mark down a unit sold, etc. ---- :Author: Daniel K Mwangi :Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 03:02:20 PDT Amazing! When we were in the Gulu for Omidyar conference , we had these groups to come up with an idea and the best group gets some seeding fund. Our group came up with the soap idea. This was born from the self help idea and the need for soaps in some places like southern sudan.However,our idea was defeated and I went back to Kenya then Sudan but not before Munnu promised to pursue it further. Its amazing how it has grown.Are the then o-nneters present during the idea around to share their ideas as to why we thought soap to be such a nice idea? I recall Samwel Ngotho,Kongere,Francis Gitau,Munnu,I and Christina(she overheard too-and she is more welcome). Come on guys....... ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:29:35 PDT Hi all, I am working on creating a form that we will use for community project proposals. The soap project will be the first 'test project' so we all are learning as we go. Munnu, you have been doing a great job and as I review all the information you have given, these are the areas that you still need to put specific information so the application can be completed. 1. There must be some kind of packaging for market description. You can list a beginning packaging and list alternate methods to be developed but there must be something definite to start. If you are using jerry cans list exactly what sizes you will offer. 2. You have to come up with pricing. How much will you sell each size container for, how much to charge if they bring their own container. Be specific. 3. List 10 members including yourself that intend to participate in this project 4. You must come up with a plan for how to award bananas. How many earned by making the soap, how many earned for selling. This needs to be in place before the project starts. I think that once you get these details ironed out we will be able to put the whole proposal together. I look forward to hearing from you. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 01:16:36 PDT :Modified: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 01:19:27 PDT We will start up with the jericans and of the following sizes : 5 litre..........7500= 10litre........15000= 20litre........30000= and without 5 litre..........6750= 10litre.........13500= 20litre..........26500= 2-Munnu Morrish, Katusi Denis, Atim grace, Akena Mk Micheal, Adokorach Irine. Kampala Members Obiga Ezra, Ndelo Petre, George Kilama, Jessica Wasswa, Ayoo Jennifer. **Bananas** Making Soap.......25% of the profit Sales of soap.......25% of the profit and To add to the Capital..50% of the profit. I believe its really up to the amount made and the profit earned that would determine the amount in shillings. or if there's still more on to the bananas,then I'll try to make it in Shillings. ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:41:09 PDT I thought people were getting paid in bananas per hour.....? ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:07:32 PDT So did I, we will have to clarify that a bit more. Maybe he means that 25% will be for the bananas earned making the soap and 25% for bananas earned selling. Is that right Munnu or am I still not understanding? I also did not realize that this was a project that combined the two centers (Kampala and Gulu). Is this a joint venture? I was thinking it was a Ned-Gulu project. Just getting things straight in my mind. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:09:20 PDT Oops, I had one more question. Everyone, especially at the local level will not want to buy 5 liters at a time and that is the smallest quantity you have listed. Will smaller quantities be offered and what will the price be and how will it be packaged? ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:08:57 PDT I would also think it might be good to think about charging a little less per liter for larger quantities. Yours handling costs are less the more you sell per customer. Think about your costs if you make 400 L and you have a single customer compared to making 400 L and having 400 customers. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:05:28 PDT EEvvy said *So did I, we will have to clarify that a bit more. Maybe he means that 25% will be for the bananas earned making the soap and 25% for bananas earned selling. Is that right Munnu or am I still not understanding?* Exactly thats what I meant interm of percentage. *I also did not realize that this was a project that combined the two centers (Kampala and Gulu). Is this a joint venture?* NO,but during the lia planning ayear ago it was planned that whichever happens in Gulu should also happen in Kampala.So this means soap production in Gulu means soap production in Kampala.but this should not mean we are changing the way of operation but the kampala members should also learn making soap. *Everyone, especially at the local level will not want to buy 5 liters at a time and that is the smallest quantity you have listed. Will smaller quantities be offered and what will the price be and how will it be packaged?* I remember we said ther is still aloophole in packaging and the current solution was to have one come with own container forinstance.for this matter the the price of every litres demanded will have its price and alitre will cost 1250= Linda its really that right but I needed it start and figure out how best it can be done with the difficulty in packaging this smaller quantities. (i'll respond to you after doing some little market research.) ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:40:30 PDT I am stupid today - and most other days for that matter - I don't understand the bananas as a percentage of profits rather than time. That is really changing the concept...at least as I understand it. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:58:04 PDT 25% of the profit....is the amount interm of %age which will be set a side to pay for either making or selling, I dont see exactly where the all thing has changed its meaning . **means that 25% will be for the bananas earned making the soap and 25% for bananas earned selling** this will either be per hour or litres made. more ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:55:26 PDT I thought the workers were paid like 1 banana per 2 hours worked. Not a percentage. If you set a "wage" rather than set it up as profit sharing, you will be able to build the business faster I think. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 03:51:10 PDT That's right Linda So this means 2 hours worked=1 banana and 1banana=2000/= Thanks alot. ---- :Author: Ben Parkinson :Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 04:36:32 PDT Just an "off the wall" idea. Have you thought of talking to Pepsi or Coca Cola to see if they would either supply used recycled plastic 500ml bottles or do the packaging for any suitably-sized plastic bottles that you fill with the soap? It sounds like a possible PR opportunity for them, which might not cost them very much to implement. From your perspective, if you could market the products as pure natural soap in very obviously recycled packaging it might just be gimmicky enough to sell internationally. It will sell better if Coke themselves put a bit of marketing effort into it. Perhaps they could give it away to customers as part of a promotion, although they would buy it off you. What about a "Coke-aroma" soap (or bubble bath), made from natural ingredients? It may sound odd, but Coke's flavour is a global phenomenon for young people and there are some synergies with recycling in this market too. As long as it works, people will buy it. But really it is worth looking at ways to market the recycling aspect as a distinguisher for your product. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:21:27 PDT Good idea Ben. It may very well be possible to get a "corporate" sponsor for a project like this. I know they have a Coke bottling plant there and there are also the companies who actually bottle the water. It might be a good thing for Munnu or one of the other members to investigate. I have put up the first draft of the `project proposal`_. Take a look and let us know if there is other information on the proposal that might be needed or if anything is unclear. We are trying to use this project to develope a standard proposal form which will make it much easier on the next projects so any input is greatly appreciated. Look at it as if you were thinking of donated to the project. What info would any of you need to make that decision. Thanks to everyone for their help on this. By the way, even if we start on a shoestring and with crude packaging, we should and will continue to try and develope good packaging and a method to use it. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:45:42 PDT :Modified: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:46:46 PDT Just working with Grace to have this figured out,It might be a good opportunity really if this suceed.Lots of hope and willingness to have this done. **Grace can or Peter who are at the heart of the city whre this plants are can provide good research on this please help do it** ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:40:15 PDT pepsi and coke only use glass bottles here in that size. Munnu, what happened to using recycled water bottles? Linda, bananas earned by an individual might be awarded per hour in production, or for every liter they've sold. At the end of the month, the total amount available to pay out on bananas (ie, 50% of the profit on what's sold) is divided among all the banana earners. with regard to producing at Gulu and Kampala, Munnu, I think it might be best to start in one place first and plan a timeline for expanding to Kampala. Otherwise, all of your start-up costs have to double - or was that your intent? ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:54:56 PDT I think we need to get someone in here to talk about alternate currencies. I guess I am not sure that that is the best way to handle this operation as you expand. And if it is a project of the coop there should be a responsibility to the whole coop as well... I think that is the idea behind time dollars...an hour in beads is like an hour in soap is like an hour in training someone. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:09:17 PDT Thanks Christina, I thought the soda only came in glass bottles but I wasn't absolutely sure. And I do think the projects should be located at one center at a time. The logistics, the added expense and the bookkeeping would be enormous to run at two centers at a time especially since we are learning as we go right now. I thought the idea was that the projects would be started at individual centers and then could be started at a second or third center as a new project or an expansion as the project progressed. For this first test project I would really like to see it confined to one center. This is just my oppinion, of course. ---- :Author: David Braden :Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:36:04 PDT Linda said: I think that is the idea behind time dollars...an hour in beads is like an hour in soap is like an hour in training someone. Time dollars works best if it is just a trade of services with no expectation of cash remuneration or participation in the "profit from sales". I actually think bead bananas as a share of bead profits and soap bananas as a share of soap profits is not a bad way to start. It will be interesting to see if there would be a market for bead bananas in exchange for soap and how that might play out . . . I agree with you - if the participants want to be a "Ned COOP" then they and Ned (is that all of us?) need to think through what that means. Is Ned providing financing, marketing, accounting, or other services and what is the value of that - what share of profits goes to the wider network to pay for that - If the wider Ned network made a profit what would that be used for? I would urge the participants to take the even further step of forming a community investment enterprise as discussed in this comment_. .. _comment: http://www.ned.com/group/neduganda/news/2/21/ ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 15:33:47 PDT There's a $500 speed-granting process going on at facebook for another 13 days. With a coordinated effort, we may well be able to get this seed project funded that way. I'm willing to champion it if we can agree that we're ready to go with this. I personally think we need to let the community work out their bananas system internally and let us know what's working for them. I really don't think we can expect to get exchanges of bananas for other product/services happening until we have more products/services internally available as a basis for that kind of exchange. I would like to encourage us to think of this particular small project as one of *several* that will (need to) happen within the ned Uganda structure. Community group production of a locally useful household product is what we are looking at. So Munnu, in the spirit of the two centers' activities mirroring each other's activities, for now I would *not* say that if Gulu is producing soap, then Kampala has to start producing soap right away. Maybe if Gulu is producing liquid soap, Kampala should aim to produce another kind of locally useful household product (candles, powdered cleanser, etc.) using more or less the same group production and packaging approaches. That way nedUganda would have 2 locally marketable products in the same household line - one produced in Banda-kireka (the new Kampala location) and one produced in Gulu... and perhaps (with some inter-city transport thrown into the mix) members at *both centers* could earn bananas for selling either of them. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 15:46:56 PDT Christina Jordan said: There's a $500 speed-granting process going on at facebook for another 13 days. With a coordinated effort, we may well be able to get this seed project funded that way. I'm willing to champion it if we can agree that we're ready to go with this. I personally think we are ready to go on this one and would welcome any help you can give. I personally think we need to let the community work out their bananas system internally and let us know what's working for them. I really don't think we can expect to get exchanges of bananas for other product/services happening until we have more products/services internally available as a basis for that kind of exchange. I totally agree. The community has been working with bananas and they seem to understand it so it makes sense to me to let them figure it out. It is their project afterall. I would like to encourage us to think of this particular small project as one of *several* that will (need to) happen within the ned Uganda structure. Community group production of a locally useful household product is what we are looking at. Yes, exactly! So Munnu, in the spirit of the two centers' activities mirroring each other's activities, for now I would *not* say that if Gulu is producing soap, then Kampala has to start producing soap right away. Maybe if Gulu is producing liquid soap, Kampala should aim to produce another kind of locally useful household product (candles, powdered cleanser, etc.) using more or less the same group production and packaging approaches. That way nedUganda would have 2 locally marketable products in the same household line - one produced in Banda-kireka (the new Kampala location) and one produced in Gulu... and perhaps (with some inter-city transport thrown into the mix) members at *both centers* could earn bananas for selling either of them. Excellent! those were also my thoughts. ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:04:30 PDT You just need to work out how it all fits into the coop.... needs to be maintained in the process. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:22:01 PDT I am just not sure what you mean. Perhaps you have more of an idea about what NeD Uganda is or should be. I was confused by the earlier comments about this. So, can you elaborate a little more? ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 04:32:56 PDT Would love some quick feedback on the text I've written below (but not yet submitted) for the facebook speed-granting process, which we'd like to try as a first strategy for attracting funds to this. (if that doesn't work, there is a plan B and a plan C, but I'd *love* to see how responsive our collective facebook network is to this kind of thing) In addition to feedback on how I've tried to tell the soap project story, I need some input on the issue of the amount. The amount needed for the soap project is shs500,000 (+/- $300), and the speedgrant amount is $500. So my question is about the $200 extra (less a bit for transfer fees). We can use it to buy more raw materials stock, or we can use it for another project. If the former, then the `project_proposal`_ workspace needs adjusting. If the latter, then I'd want to work that into the pitch somehow. What shall we do? .. _`project_proposal`: http://www.ned.com/group/neduganda/ws/project_proposal/ -------- Project Title Gulu Soap Works The problem/need/situation With peace on the horizon, Northern Uganda's war affected population is now ready, able and eager to start rebuilding the local economy. Life in Africa community members in Gulu are seeking start up funds to produce and market liquid soap in the region. The Pitch At Life in Africa's WE Center Gulu, a community of 80 vulnerable families are working together to rebuild their lives, as one of Africa's longest running and most brutal civil wars continues to edge toward peace. In this remote region, basic household products like soap and candles are in irregular supply. Income earning opportunities are even more scarce, though the cost of living is on the rise. Seed-money for stimulating local production of locally useful goods is badly needed. For all of the reasons above, the Gulu Soap Works project makes sense. But there's a special story that makes this a very special project - one that simply needs to happen, and that the online world should feel proud to be a part of. Gulu Soap Works started out as an idea championed by a young man named Munnu Morrish at a global online community gathering that was held in Gulu in Feb. 2007. In a vote for the most fundable idea at that event, Munnu's project didn't win. But the idea didn't die, and Munnu didn't give up. In the months since then, the global community of supporters who gather at ned.com have excitedly offered ideas, guidance and moral support, while young Munnu has learned everything he could about soap making and worked with Life in Africa community members in Gulu to fine-tune the community soap-making plan. We think the time has come for Munnu's online world to help fulfill this collaborative dream, and reward his persistence in wanting to make this good thing happen in his war-torn community. $500 will buy the start up equipment and materials required to make and sell an initial 400 liters of soap. 10 Life in Africa members have agreed to take operational responsibility for this project, and another 75 women will have the opportunity to learn how to make soap and earn income from group production and sales. Selling soap in local neighborhoods will also provide an income generating opportunity for Life in Africa members in Kampala - mostly IDP camp residents who want to return home. Further market expansion opportunities will be sought in nearby Southern Sudan, where peace is also gaining a foothold and household products are needed. 10% of all profits from Gulu Soap Works will finance the start-up of additional community income generating projects in Gulu. Link http://www.ned.com/group/neduganda/ws/project_proposal/ ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 04:54:45 PDT I have done some editing and I believe that is the best I have done for the project.However,there are more members than this on this proposal. Its community and We are working for the community. Thanks y'all ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 05:49:57 PDT I like the proposal and if I were you I would keep it focused on a single project. ---- :Author: David Braden :Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 06:27:15 PDT Agree on the single project - buy more supplies - or better equipment? ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:55:17 PDT :Modified: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:56:03 PDT Christina said: *In addition to feedback on how I've tried to tell the soap project story, I need some input on the issue of the amount. The amount needed for the soap project is shs500,000 (+/- $300), and the speedgrant amount is $500. So my question is about the $200 extra (less a bit for transfer fees). We can use it to buy more raw materials stock, or we can use it for another project. If the former, then the project_proposal workspace needs adjusting. If the latter, then I'd want to work that into the pitch somehow. What shall we do?* First of all, I love the proposal you wrote. I especially like it that you highlighted Munnu because he has showed amazing diligence and determination to make this all happen. As far as the use of the $500 I would suggest that we increase the first production from 400 liters to 600 liters. I have done the numbers and this will bring the total up to right at $500. If everyone agrees with this I can adjust the proposal to reflect this. ---- :Author: Rory Turner :Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 08:23:56 PDT Just cheerleading: Great work Munnu, Christina, Evvy!!!! ---- :Author: Stephanie Paone :Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:40:12 PDT More cheerleading... Super job, everyone! ---- :Author: Michael Pattinson :Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:02:25 PDT Very best of luck to those involved in this bubbly, fun and valuable project. :-)) .. image:: http://www.ned.com/group/neduganda/file/0.14.11902464140/get/bubbles4.jpg ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:38:40 PDT Christina Jordan said: *There's a $500 speed-granting process going on at facebook for another 13 days. With a coordinated effort, we may well be able to get this seed project funded that way. I'm willing to champion it if we can agree that we're ready to go with this.* When will this be up on facebook or its already in the pipeline?just to know and get started. ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:45:57 PDT Let me know and I will hit my contact list....we need to be organized as you can only recruit 10 people a day from your list. ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:07:32 PDT Sorry I've been busy with other things today, but hope to have the facebook thingy posted within the nest little while. Thanks for the 10/day heads up Linda - I had not realized that. Evvy can you go ahead and adjust the budget? We'll need to account for the paypal & transfer fees (roughly 40,000) and I'm also thinking if Kampala is in the sales mix then about shs60,000 in transport. So maybe we should target 500 liters and put any excess into marketing. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:16:23 PDT Will do, I am working on something else right now (my paying job) but can do this in about 30 minutes or so. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:59:42 PDT Okay, I have updated the `Project Proposal`_ ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:48:49 PDT Eeek! I can't decide! We don't have the (recommended) video pitch, and I don't have any photos of soapmaking. So which photo shall I upload with the facebook proposal? In addition to appearing on the proposal page, the pic will appear on a lead-in page with this text: *With peace on the horizon, Northern Uganda's war affected population is now ready, able and eager to start rebuilding the local economy. Life in Africa community members in Gulu are seeking start up funds to produce and market liquid soap in the region.* .. image:: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1062/1355977961_45751f3faf_m.jpg image 1 . .. image:: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/222/463268142_2f85d2a927_m.jpg image 2 . .. image:: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/220/463261376_c3201cb2bb_m.jpg image 3 . .. image:: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/326856245_7d590d4be3_m.jpg image 4 . ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:56:41 PDT I love #2 as in "celebrating a new beginning" but I also like #1 which shows the faces of the people. ---- :Author: Stephanie Paone :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 11:51:08 PDT I like number 2 as well, it shows an active connected community. Photo 3 might work, as it shows attentive "ready-to-rebuild" people. ---- :Author: David Braden :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:54:10 PDT My first impression was #1 ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:12:11 PDT Wow...my first impressions was #3 since it shows them obviously working together to make decisions! ---- :Author: David Braden :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:45:41 PDT I guess #1 is real people ready to start working? :) ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:12:08 PDT ok we're now live... on both facebook *and* razoo. `Check out the project proposal workspace`_ for details. Let's see if we can't pump this up in record time! .. _`Check out the project proposal workspace`: http://www.ned.com/group/neduganda/ws/Project%20Proposal/ ---- :Author: Mark Grimes :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:13:29 PDT I voted, and invited 10 more to do the same (with an added link to the workspace you just created in the Facebook voting invitation) ---- :Author: Rory Turner :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:22:47 PDT I did too. Let's move this needle! ---- :Author: Michael Pattinson :Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:13:54 PDT #4 GETS MY VOTE ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:20:05 PDT Done ---- :Author: kiwanuka mulindwa :Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:43:49 PDT Good way to go. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:41:38 PDT Done and recruited 2. ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 00:05:09 PDT I hadn't had a lot of time before now to go over the project. I went over it this morning and I have some questions. * What do you anticipate the cost of packing and labeling to be in the 2nd and subsequent months? * Why are there no ongoing marketing and transportation costs? They are significant expenses to throw in as recurring. * You need to include an expense for maintenance of the coop each month - consider it like rent to cover the cost of space, electricity, etc. * I don't understand the weight of the bananas. Making soap is 1 banana for 2 hours of real work. Selling a single 5 liter jerrycan of soap from your "store front" is worth 5 bananas? * You have not allocated bananas for marketing work. I would suggest that you sit down with a pencil and paper and start out with 873,000 sh ($500 that you are working on for your grant). Deposit in an account and then pretend you are doing business. First subtract for money transfer fees. then capital expenses for your equipment, supplies, transport....etc...follow it through a couple of months adding and subtracting. See what happens to the amount of money you are starting each month with. Look at the amount of the money that needs to be divided between 10 people. Are the people going to keep working for that money? ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 03:41:20 PDT Hey we're already on the first page at number 8 on facebook, but we've still got a long way to go! Here are some tips sent to me by facebook after submitting the proposal. If many of us could follow these tips we'll have a higher likelihood of moving up the list. If you want the $500 for your proposal then you've got to get help spreading the word! Here are some helpful hints from past winners: 1. Promote your Speed Granting proposal to 10 of your Facebook friends per day on the SpeedGranting Application, itself. Have those friends do the same. 2. Message your friends and write on their walls. You can easily link to your proposal using the "Recruit Supporters" attachment feature for wall posts and messages. 3. Use the "Share" button on your proposal to post a note encouraging everyone to vote for your proposal on Speed Granting. 4. Send a message to the administrators of any Facebook Groups relevant to your cause. 5. And now tell all of your friends to do the same!!! ---- :Author: Grace Ayaa :Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:47:22 PDT I also have and looking round for the next ones to recruit , am really so excited for your hard work Munnu , do keep it up. ---- :Author: Stephanie Paone :Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:44:12 PDT Now I have voted, and recruited 3. ---- :Author: Munnu Morrish :Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 05:40:00 PDT Christina Jordan said: Would love some quick feedback on the text I've written below (but not yet submitted) for the facebook speed-granting process, which we'd like to try as a first strategy for attracting funds to this. (if that doesn't work, there is a plan **B and a plan C** , but I'd *love* to see how responsive our collective facebook network is to this kind of thing) The voting seems to have ended and I believe we shopuld try out plan B and C. Thanks for your contributions towards the voting exercise and Unlikely we have missed out. ---- :Author: Christina Jordan :Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 06:20:29 PDT There is another 2 week speedgranting process starting today - I've been encouraged by the folks at Facebook to resubmit. shall we do that and continue to explore effective ways to mobilize our networks to click? Or shall we go for a dropcash campaign that we promote to those networks? other ideas and opinions welcome... ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 06:45:41 PDT Linda, I appreciate your comments from over in the Coop thread but I agree with Christina that this conversations needs to be here. I also agree with Christina that the start up money is not really 'gift money'. They are going to be paying into the future project fund at a rate of 10% per month not just until the money is paid back but for the life of the business. That does mean they will be making payments back that could be way more than the startup money. Also, I do not believe there is a perfect business plan and start up plans are not something that is written in stone. Business plans are a constantly changing and evolving part of any business. They are simply a jumping off point and a tool to keep some focus. I personally owned a small business for 6 years. I had a basic plan when I started that looked different in 3 month and by the end didn't hardly resemble the starting plan. You learn as you go and you adapt to changes in the business, the market, to cost of goods, and all the rest. That is how it is anywhere and in Africa, where business plans are a completely new concept, it certainly will be the case. Another of your criticisms was that you thought there should be someone with a business background working with them. Nice thought, but not very practical. Our communities don't have that option but that doesn't mean they can't be successful. They will learn, by necessity, by doing and experiencing and I have learned to never underestimate what they can do when they put their minds to it. The have proved to me what they can do and accomplish with a little money to start with. They may not have a lot of book learning or business experience by your definition but they have drive and determination and heart and those are also key requirements in making a business a success. You are also quite hung up on the profits not being enough to sustain 10 people. We are obviously not on the same page. You seem to be assuming that this is all these people will be doing which is no where near reality. They will only be working on this project for a few hours a week, some maybe only a few hours a month. Perhaps is will grow to something more, I have great hopes that it will, but in the beginning it will be very very part time. THEY are not expecting to earn their whole living in this right away and yes, THEY are will to participate in the beginning for next to nothing because they see potential. Perhaps this is a foreign idea to western eyes but while in Uganda I saw people who even worked at something every day for no pay because they were learning something new, they were a part of something they enjoyed, and they saw that maybe down the road it would pay off. I think it is unfair to judge this business because you don't think they will make enough money when they don't feel that way at all. They are excited and are very willing to work at this to get it started because it will benefit the community, they can do it as a community, and that if it builds as they hope then it will benefit them in the future. These community projects are designed so that they can earn extra money to suplement their income or to provide them with bananas they can exchange for community services. Maybe they will work 6 hours a month on the soap project, maybe they will also work 4 hours a month on a candle project, and a few hours a month in the bead production. They earn a little from each but it all adds up to increase their income from their own jobs and businesses. You were also in disagreement on the banana pay. You think 1 banana per liter is too high for selling. I disagree. Working in prouction for 2 hours to earn 1 banana will definitely produce more than 1 liter of soap. But, if you have ever been in sales, you know that it might and probably will take more than 2 hours to sell the soap. The person selling may have to invest 8-10 hours to sell that liter. It isn't a matter of just taking the soap and selling it in 15 minutes. They have to move about, they have to talk to many people, they have to convince them to buy, they have to follow up, they have to deliver the soap, and they have to constantly be looking for new customers. This is why salespeople for companies here in the states make way more money than production people. I think it is a resonable split but again, nothing is written in stone, and if down they road the business owners vote to change that then they will. But that will be their choice. As advisors I think we need to guard against taking all controll away from them and we need to allow them to run their businesses in the manner they choose as long as our basic guidelines are met. I also agree with Christina that the 'checkbook game' just doesn't work here. You seemed frustrated that Munnu didn't respond to your suggestion but he honestly had no clue what you were talking about. Perhaps in the future, this will be a tool that could be taught and learned. We asked him to prepare a starting budget and he did. We asked that he show some profit could be made and he did. They currently have budgeted for two slush funds. They are putting 40% of the profits back into the business. If they find this is not enough in the beginning they will adjust that. Transfer fees were only for the initial transfer from the USA so this is not a recurring cost, transport will vary and will be worked out, the marketing fund was only for the initial introduction and will not necessarily be needed on a monthly basis since word of mouth will be their biggest selling tool. All these costs are variables and will be worked out. I have faith in them and their idea and I hope that you do too. ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 07:03:35 PDT ok...you guys can do what you like. I guess I have more confidence in the people in this community than you do. Part of the idea of the organization, I thought, and God knows I could be wrong, but I thought that it was a world-wide cooperation to help the people in the coops do things in the best way possible. Starting a business and saying that numbers don't matter is a sure way to make sure your business doesn't work. You don't have to play the check book game with everything that you do, but when you haven't done anything like this before, it helps visualize where you could be making mistakes in the expenses. If a business cycle for the business is a month, then it helps to go through a couple of them and see how that is going to play out. (There isn't 40% to put back into the business. Look at the numbers. The business is potentially in the red on day one of month 2.) ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 08:58:41 PDT So,assuming you are right, what steps would you take or add to fix the budget flaws that you see? Do you see it as not enough money to start, not enough in revenue, or just not feasable. Lets learn from this since it is the first project and is our test case. ---- :Author: Grace Ayaa :Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 23:08:34 PDT This is a say that goes in Uganda here, "A person who is so much educated most of the time fails in his bussiness" , because he is always very critical about everything, such that he looks at every single detail and may not be able to start the bussiness, just because he sees it as not going to be profitable at all. But for this one who is just gambling, will just risk anything and does not mind much about how much he makes, because this all he can do , he will dedicate all his time to it, while the other one will be thinking of some white color job somewhere, since he is in a position of getting it. This does not mean though that we should not have any budgets, but simple ones are okay for our simple community. ---- :Author: Linda Nowakowski :Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 19:51:37 PDT When you have nothing to risk, you don't need a budget or to look at numbers, unless of course you are trying to show someone that you have carefully thought through your plan and are a good investment. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 07:46:20 PDT Hi Linda, I am hoping your adventure is going well and look forward to hearing all about it. I took your advice and played the checkbook game. I actually had a good time doing it and it is a good tool and one that I hope will become part of our program as time allows for us to teach it to community members. Using the budget that we have proposed and worked on I do see the soap business as being viable and profitable. I set up a spread sheet and did one full year of calculations using your checkbook method. All known costs were included such as transportation, labels and containers. The money is there and the profit is there. At the end of a year I had them up to an increased production of 700 liters. The profit after costs were deducted, a percentage (30% at the end of the year decreased from 40% at the beginning) being put back into the business and the 10% back to the project fund would be approx 252,000/=. They would also have a slush fund of 355,000/= which is important to cover unexpected costs. And these numbers were calculated strictly on the budget and not taking any further loans or donations from or LiA-USA. PLUS, they would have paid back a minimum of 417,000/= back into the community project fund. I think it important to note that these calculations are figured on a monthly basis but in actuality they are on a per batch basis. It is assumed that they will make only one batch per month. However, there is every probability as well that they can build a customer base that will enable them to make 2 batches per month or even three. This is well within the realm of possibilities. In that case the profit fund would double or triple. Thanks for suggesting this exercise. Your questions did make me have some doubt but after working out the checkbook spreadsheet, I am feeling very confident. I hope that this report will also give you more confidence. ---- :Author: Mark Grimes :Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:22:32 PDT If I were investing in 10 business startups (of any size) I suspect 1-2 might do really, really well (5-25X ROI), 6-8 might do okay (1-2X ROI), and 1-2 would blow up (zero X ROI)(fail). If each business unit is in the $250-500 startup range for supplies/materials/operations/staffing for 3-5 people over 30-90 days with a decent chance of breakeven (or cash positive) sustainability...that'd be very nice indeed. Me? Personally I'd rather error on the side of things happening quickly...with quick feedback loops and room for improvement...than Q/A going on too long. ---- :Author: Evvy Bryning :Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 13:36:05 PDT Hey Mark, I absolutely agree with you. But I don't think everyone else thinks that way. Believe me, I have learned a lot of this project and I guarantee the second and future projects will go a lot faster. This one, necessarily, was the test case and now we can use what we learned and move a lot quicker. ---- :Author: Mark Grimes :Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 13:42:27 PDT Agreed the first test case will always be a little bit longer to work thru. Do you think we're getting pretty close? Do we have written timelines and milestones built in so