Linda, you have done so much for so many. And now you are doing even more for the children of Mae Usu. Please know you can call me anytime as well, as well as others here at Ned too, I'm certain. I cannot say I understand the kind of isolation you must be feeling, but I do know at a very deep level...others in this community...online...in the real world...are here for you.

I very much like that you ask us to understand that depression is a big deal and to acknowledge that to those in our lives suffering. Most of us have people in our lives, so I thought of them when I read what you wrote.

When I've been injured or been really sick, but especially when injured, I've been amazed at the amount of concentration it requires just to hang on.

This is just an off-the-wall musing, I don't know a lot about depression. My sense is that the kind of concentration I've mustered when injured is one of the coping mechanisms for dealing with depression. But that concentration, or focus, can actually exacerbate the depression.

Listening to you, I heard: "trying to pull my thoughts out of a downward spiral." So my unfounded theory sort of springs from that. I mean that you feel the response like an injury, and the mind is working to to focus on safety and survival. But the danger is the focus turns to to a rather deadly logic of hopelessness. Reason is all very well and good, but not the solution for this. It's like searching for something missing, when you look in all the usual places and not finding it there, and you search all the usual places once again.

I heard you talk about finding something "to grab on to." One might have a reason to hold on, but less to hold on to a reason. When I'm in extremes, "holding on" is good way to say what I mean by concentration. What is it I'm holding on too? I guess it's "life" or "existence," something? And I think what's so frightening about depression is what there is to hold on to seems so hard to grasp.

I have heard that in in some Native American spiritual ideas there is a construct of The Great Spirit, and also a construct of The Great Mystery or Original Source. The joke is that The Great Mystery doesn't need to be solved.

As I understand it, The Great Spirit is the order of things created once the universe got rolling. The Great Spirit is "of creation" and The Great Mystery is before and beyond creation; yet the source of all creation. In Buddhism, especially Zen, the construct of Original Face seems somewhat similar.

I'm muttering, and I worry that such muttering only makes things weird for others. Dear Linda, I don't mean to do that. What I'm meaning to do is to try to understand; and to sympathize. So you can see the reason to worry about sympathizing imagining a complete misunderstanding!

But my wacky theory here is the strange notion that "holding on" is exactly what it feels like it's so important to do, but when you think enough, what's to hold on to is emptiness or the void.

That sounds depressing! And yet The Great Mystery is that mystery which needs no solution. The grasping for the order of things, now that's important to do. But when we really need to concentrate, when we really need to hold on, that's not what we need to hold on to. We need not what is mutable and in creation, but to grasp the source: once there before and there long after. Us but not us, not a result of psychology or experience, but the essence of all experience.

I know that you are a Christian. I love so much about Christianity; for example I love so very much The Lord's Prayer: God as "Thou." There is also within this sprawling religious tradition running through the Abrahamic religions, God whose name cannot be said. In Alcoholics Anonymous it seems to me that "A Higher Power" is part of this stream.

I think where to look for something to hold on to; well first to say your prayers, but then to contemplate God whose name cannot be said. To be then a part of something bigger, longer, older, younger, not understood, and there always.

For not religious people finding a way to accommodate A Higher Power is a big problem sometimes. I've heard people call their higher power Bernice, or Ralph or some name. Usually it some name chosen because they don't associate the name with a particular person. It's chosen as a deliberate joke to remind them not to pay too much attention to the name so they can take seriously the Higher Power.

It's very good to pray, it's very good to think of a quiet place you like to be in mind. But when you are concentrating trying to grab hold, I think there's wisdom in the traditions I've mentioned: Great Mystery, Original Face, God whose name cannot be said, Higher Power. Obviously I cannot tell you what to grab there, still that's where to grab.

I am here. I have such affection for you. I send warm thoughts your way.

Dearest Linda,

I understand. Been there, done that. Over and over again.

I've been to hell and back enough times that I have developed a little plan for myself. When I get down to where it's so dark and I'm so tired that I don't even CARE whether I get out or not I force myself to remember:

1.) I've been here before. (That one is easy)

2.) I've gotten out of here before. (OK, yeah, that's true, but I have no idea how I did it and I certainly can't do it now.)

3.) I have no idea how to get out of here (and, frankly, I don't care.)

4.) Repeat 1 & 2 until you hear them (don't repeat the parentheses part. That's just my smark aleck inner child talking).

5.) Then, repeat #3, and then think..."but, You do. So, YOU figure this out. YOU get me out of here."

6.) Say "Thanks," and then I take a nap.

7.) Wake up and then go do the next right thing.

8.) Rinse and repeat.

My spiritual philosophy is a la Marianne Williams, Course in Miracles, Buddhism, Druid, a loving energy/universe kind of thing. One thing I've always remembered was, "If you feel like you are struggling too much, if you're in fear, that means you are trying to do things yourself. Ask for help."

One step at a time.

Take care. Peace + Play, Cynthia

Thank you Linda for sharing yourself with us. I read your post at 6am this morning. It really had an impact on me and I felt so many emotions that it has taken me most of the day to comment.

First of all, you are not alone even though it feels that way. So many of us are exactly where you are or have been there at some point in time. Me, I am there right now. I know depression all to well and I recognize that bathroom floor. I know every line and every crack. I have been on that floor for over a month now and am just now starting to crawl out of that small dark space that has been my mental prison.

My friend Mary was my touchstone. She was such a special person and after having known me for 46 years, it seemed as if she could see right into my soul. She had such a way about her with me. When she saw that I was depressed and felt like I was laying on the floor she never yelled at me or made me feel like I was doing something wrong. She seemed to just lay down on the floor with me and listen to me. Then she could just hold out her hand and say "its time to get off the floor" and I found that with her help, I could and would. And then she would always encourage me to just get on with it, whatever it was at the time. She believed and taught me what she called the 4 Gs of life.

1. Find and realize the Good in yourself
2. Search for and embrace the Good in others
3. Rejoice in the Good things that come your way
4. Discover the Good you can give back to the world

She believed that if you practiced the 4 Gs every day that Good feelings would be your reward. That by concentrating on Good the bad feelings would be pushed aside.

I lost my dear Mary this last December. I got an email while I was in Uganda telling me she had died. I miss her so very much. Now I can only remember her and hear her in my mind telling me to get up and get on with it. But it is so much harder.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that it is just like Cynthia says. We all need help from time to time and we all need someone to reach out their hand and help us get off the floor. We just need to accept that it is okay to be helped and to ask for it.

You have so many people here who care about you and who admire and respect you. Me included. So lets both get off the floor and get on with it. We can do it, both of us. and if you need some help, I am only an email away.

I am sitting here in tears. And they are not bad tears.

A little bit of back ground might be in order. On top of it being term break, this week-end is a 3 day holiday - Coronation Day I think. The only people in my apartment building of 96 apartments are me and the guard. I haven't seen a face since Friday afternoon (remember it is Sunday here). Starting on Friday morning, the weather here turned really ugly. There was the remains of a tropical cyclone ... we didn't get the worst of it. It was windy and dark and rainy. I was going to try to get out to the store. I couldn't get transportation. I have a current work load that is hmmm...shall we say overwhelming? I am supposed to start a class in advanced statistics (which I really, REALLY need) on Tuesday morning and it will be taught in Thai by someone who I think is an idiot. I am chair of a committee for an international conference in December and I had a meeting with Apichai this week and sent all of the preliminary plans out to the international committee to get approval so I can get moving on it ( http://Buddhist-Economics.info ) and only one of the 18 people that it went out to have bothered to respond. yada yada yada - the list goes on.

After I posted this yesterday, I went back to bed with a book. I haven't been able to focus well enough to read lately so I anticipated falling asleep. It didn't work that way. I read most of the day. (Maybe the exercise in focus here helped?) And it was good stuff. It was a book on a contemporary Thai Buddhist scholar who challenged the Thai Buddhist philosophy, the operation and structure of the Thai Sangha, the Thai government and social structure. He left no rock un-turned. But it gave me such incredible new insight to Thai culture. I read, understood and synthesized from it. Unless you have been in the hole with Cynthia, Evvy and I, you don't know what an accomplishment that is.

Then in the late afternoon, I got a phone call. Mark had sent an SOS to Gayle and Gayle called. We were on the phone for over 2 hours. (My gawd, can that woman talk.....) She made me laugh and cry and kept a smile on my face for most of that time. The connection was broken and unbelievably she called back. I had already fired off a thank you email and laughingly pointing out that God was looking after dear Gayle's voice and broke the connection. I also found a message from John Berger (who is in Thailand).

Gayle called back and proceeded to tell me that if her ex-husband couldn't get her off of the phone, God couldn't. However, when I told her that I had gotten a message from John, she told me she was going to hang up and I was to send John a message and tell him that God couldn't get her off of the phone but he could, so he could call me. Result was that I talked to John for about 20 minutes as well. (We aren't going to be able to get together this time but next time we are going to work a bit harder to coordinate so I can travel with him and see the work he is doing here and hopefully we will be able to schedule things so that he or Sarah can make it to another conference I am planning for the beginning of the year.)

I got up this morning and the day is sparkling...the air is fresh from the rain, there is a lovely breeze and the sky is an unbelievable shade of blue.

The big black dog hasn't left me (from experience I am pretty sure of that) but you incredible people have held him at bay for a while. You have come together to be my Mary.

Evvy....I have written down the G's...thank you so much for that gift. I want to add a couple of G's to the list...

• G ood friends (you ALL know who you are.... G rimes, G ayle, G entry ....I don't know how to get G's from John and Evvy!)
• Just G ET HELP - (thanks Cynthia)
• G od (John)

One of the "symptoms" of all of this really is feeling alone ... and it takes someone prodding to help me remember that I have G ood friends and G od that I can get help from. (Who said that community on the internet is not real?)

ขอบคุณมากมากค่ะ (Thank you very, very much)

Hello Linda,

No doubt your firm friends online here are of great assistance to you and that is good. I think your friend who suggested remembering that it will end, as it always does and things will get better, offers most wise counsel. I don't have to hypothesise, like you I know it. There's noone going to come knocking at your door when the black dog comes to visit. I'm not sure of how you see things, but I know over many years that the depths of depression have a dark seductive side.... that as much as you want to draw away from it with all your strength, it calls to you like lonesome company, like staying on a lonely bar with a lonely man drinking sadly because you somehow seem rooted to the spot... well that's been me anyway. I've noticed some of Gayle's posts so it comes as no surprise that she can talk and then some I'm sure! Hang in there, hold on to the bit inside that makes you tough and ride out the storm... it makes the calm waters and sunshineahead so much sweeter.

regards,

Liam

OMJ - the power in sharing never fails to amaze me. (hey, we'd better let Meron know that John has moved up a notch and as a result, OMG is a bit "yesterday"!!! :)

One of the first things I said to Linda when I called was how wonderfully courageous I thought she had been by writing such a raw and honest post because it is exactly such frank disclosures (made by a number of prominent Australians over the past decade) that has opened the way for much greater public dialogue, information sharing and increased understanding and awareness in Australia.

And then I read Cynthia and Evvy's posts when I woke this morning - and sobbed through both of them. (Evvy I am so sorry that you have lost your Mary - so very sorry - she sounded like one in a million.)

It felt like the three of you were holding hands across the miles in a way that made you all seem even more beautiful, strong and brave than usual.

Beautiful.

Well to quote one famous Australian:

Guys are OK... shake their hand... Women are special. You can hug 'em. Goes a long way to make you feeling a whole lot better whoever you are.

Hey Linda,

Here's a bit from one of my favourite movies, Catch 22. If you feel like the world't being turned upside down.. which it is if you're living at the bottom of it, here's something to reflect on... not deep and meaningful but fun... so you just have to keep flying. regards,

Liam

Yossarian: Is Orr crazy? Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: Of course he is. He has to be crazy to keep flying after all his close calls he's had. Yossarian: Why can't you ground him? Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: I can, but first he has to ask me. Yossarian: That's all he's gotta do to be grounded? Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: That's all. Yossarian: Then you can ground him? Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: No. Then I cannot ground him. Yossarian: Aah! Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: There's a CATCH? Yossarian: A catch? Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: Sure. Catch-22. Anyone who wants to get out of combat isn't really crazy, so I can't ground him. Yossarian: Ok, let me see if I've got this straight. In order to be grounded, I've got to be crazy. And I must be crazy to keep flying. But if I ask to be grounded, that means I'm not crazy anymore, and I have to keep flying. Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: You got it, that's Catch-22. Yossarian: Whoo... That's some catch, that Catch-22. Dr. 'Doc' Daneeka: It's the best there is.

Liam's quote about guys being okay made me laugh. I'm a guy, so I know something about us: We can be oblivious sometimes. So it's not always true that we notice depression in others, or even ourselves. Even more than noticing, saying it. A very dear friend of mine made a comment when I asked how she was doing to the effect that she's been depressing. It probably annoyed her that I didn't know that that depression was a regular visitor in her life.

To the extent that others can help, and it seems others can, it's a good thing to let people know. Caring goes a long way. I care very much about all of you.

Linda began her post with the confusion about what depression really is. It's not surprising there's confusion because people are really complicated and complex systems are hard to know about.

From data it's pretty well established that counseling improves outcomes. The data on various psychiatric drugs reveals positive outcomes too; with the combination of the two having synergistic effects. But how much the generalities of data say about particular situations is not so clear. Everyone suffering with depression is of course dealing with a very particular situation.

I rather take it for granted that Linda has studied the subject of depression. I know she knows more than I do. In a general way I'm at least aware of some of the approaches to dealing with depression. In particular I know some little bit about Cognitive Therapy and some little bit about William Glasser's approach. So with the data, particularly about Cognitive Therapy, I know there's something to it.

My ramblings about God were an attempt to say that yes reason is important, but that there is also a sort of existential crisis involved. I suppose by "existential" what I mean is related to existentialism or the problem of creating meaning. And when it comes to existential crises I'm of the opinion that reason isn't adequate for the task.

Somehow for me the joke that The Great Mystery is a mystery that doesn't need solving is reassuring. "Knowing thyself" is not so easy to do, at least for me it isn't. Part of it is discovering the essence, and part the composition of our lives. And in some sense it seems to me that the essence isn't entirely our own and at our command.

Some philosopher, I think it was Sartre, said the really big question is: Why is there something rather than nothing? It is a big question but for a person like the puzzle of the question seems less interesting. There is something after all; hence, "the mystery that doesn't need solving." But there's also the crisis of depression when one goes to the source and cannot grasp hold.

Last night I searched for the lyrics of a Van Morrison song, "Before the World Was Made." I knew the song was a reworking of a poem by W. B. Yeats, but which poem, I wasn't sure. Van Morrison is a great artist, but a notoriously cantankerous person. Searching for his stuff online is bit dicey because he so vigorously protects it. There's a kind of irony because over the course of his career he has tried often to use lines from Yeats in his music, mostly not receiving permission. That he managed to get permission for this song must contain a story, but haven't seen it. Here is the Yeat's poem:

Before the World Was Made

If I make the lashes dark

And the eyes more bright

And the lips more scarlet,

Or ask if all be right

From mirror after mirror,

No vanity's displayed:

I'm looking for the face I had

Before the world was made.

What if I look upon a man

As though on my beloved,

And my blood be cold the while

And my heart unmoved?

Why should he think me cruel

Or that he is betrayed?

I'd have him love the thing that was

Before the world was made.

Linda and Evvy, you are two of the most beautiful women I've ever met. Oh I'm sure I'm responding to what you do, the way you compose your lives. But I'm also sure that I'm responding to something more essential about you. I believe that I'm responding to what is essential--God in Linda's "G" list, although I'm sure I know God but little.

What I'm saying is that I hear your despair your frantic reaching and not being able to grab hold. I acknowledge the difficulty. From my perspective, God in you, your connection to the essence, is plain to see. I don't see from your perspective so I cannot tell you where to grab hold. But perhaps it is useful to tell you I can see the essence in you, so there is something to grab hold. It's exhausting to try, I know. But there is great dignity in trying, and Liam points to courage. So maybe it's helpful to know that the way others see trying isn't in a bad light at all.

hi dear linda,

i'm hoping that the bright and crystal morning has dispelled some of the misery that comes with empty holidays. i suspect those of you who struggle the hardest to make the world just that much better are also the hardest hit by feelings of impotence, loneliness, self-doubt...

sometimes i wonder - usually when i'm reading about the lives of others - what it takes to build up that inner scaffolding needed to weather the sieges and storms that life will bring. i've found maybe three answers (so take your pick ;)

• Drink
• One friend
• Constant motion

There's probably others, in todays world of science but none of them seem the stuff of supernatural heroes, which seems to be your special case.

When I was in Thailand and Malaysia years ago, I was called "Johnny" or "Johnny Boy" all the time by the young men. Do they still do that out there?

Well, anyway dear its so good to hear your personal reflections on this short walk even though I know they bring with them deep suffering. From a true understanding of suffering I've long believed - counter to the best of contemporary thought - comes a stronger, wiser, and more patient capacity to serve.

I trust with the warm circle of friends that surrounds you - here and in the flesh - you will find your solace and the strength to propel you forward in the good work that you do, day after day after day.

Do you skype btw? i'm lhtorres.

warmly,

lars

I am so glad you are doing better Linda. I will be keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. Someday I do hope we can meet face to face. I think we have much in common.

Lars, my friend - you are a Prince!!!

love Gayle

Linda...

next time you stare out of that window, into the dark night...remember there is a face at the other end of the dark....jep i'm here in Africa, waving! keep on rocking!

x fre

Does frustration cause depression or does depression make frustration easier to recognize?

I sort of did a double take when I read your latest question. It seems implicit there is some advantage in depression; that is ease in which frustration is recognized. The observation that depressed people often have a more realistic view of the world has been made in various ways. There's a kernel of truth to it. But it's hard to balance that with the truly debilitating parts of depression.

I love the blog 3Quarks Daily. I couldn't possibly read everything they post daily, but I love to scan through daily. There's something wonderful to me about reading a beautiful poem juxtaposed with some new scientific insight. My father won't venture online, but he loves The New Yorker for the same reason.

I was scanning through recent posts there to find a link to an interesting article on depression in the Boston Globe. Head fake: How Prozac sent the science of depression in the wrong direction. Along the way I saw a link to an article in one of the Social Science Research Council's blogs "The Immanent Frame" reflecting on Buddhism and Western cognitive science research. Obviously you can't read everything anymore than I can. But here's the link to the snippet at 3Quarks and you can link through if you want to.

My opinion about your question is something like this: When I'm depressed, it's almost a like an earwig--those annoying songs you can't get out of your head. But in my case it's a loop of disparaging thoughts that circles round and around. Doing anything with that loop in the background requires more effort than usual, until I sink from exhaustion.

The Boston Globe article says we'll probably discover many different sorts of depression the more when learn about it. I don't know whether what I call being depressed is depression, but I'm sure a good clinician could come up with a handful of scales which prove me crazy! In any case, my experience of the loops of negative thoughts is frustrating, in the sort of No Exit way. There's no doubt these bouts take their toll, so it's not too far fetched to associate frustration as a cause.

But I'm not so sure about causes to the bouts. I mean the number of times this has happened isn't few and I don't really discern a pattern of initial conditions. It's also the case that I've been very frustrated without feeling depressed; that is, having seemingly uncontrolled loops of negative thoughts while frustrated. So my hunch is that frustration is more symptomatic rather than causal, at least in my depression.

Does frustration cause depression or does depression make frustration easier to recognize?

I also found Linda's question an arresting one. It made me ask myself:

Does depression cause frustration or does frustration make depression easier to recognize?

Is this a reframe, mirror-image, tautology or simply nonsense?

It wasn't meant as anything clever. I just find that when I am having depression troubles I land up getting incredibly frustrated...possibly because of those cyclical thoughts and downward spirals that disable my ability to do things. Or maybe when I am depressed I am just much more aware of the frustrations ... I mean there are always here and never go away ... maybe they just bother me more when I am down.

Sorry...no heavy thoughts or deep insights, just musings. :-)